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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#321151: Aug 15th 2022 at 12:01:28 PM

I'll have one more for the moment...Andrew Seneca

Whos is Andrew Seneca?

A Ventrue politician. Andrew was born a slave in Georgia and sold to a plantation in Virginia where he became an educated house slave. One night, Andrew witnessed a shrouded woman attacking a slave, feeding on his blood. Calling to her, the two talked and the woman took a liking to him. Her name was Monica san Valentin and she offered to take him from the plantation to Philadelphia. Agreeing, Andrew was given the Embrace and awoke to new life in the Ventrue. Educated by Monica, Andrew learned tor ead and took Seneca as his name, before discovering his 'taste' (Ventrue are limited to whom they can feed from) was for other slaves...Andrew grew to love the taste of despair in their blood.

When the North abolished slavery, Andrew found his feeding ground dwindling and instead moved for the south. Andrew aided the confederacy to secretly crush the anti-slavery movement, but lost out and had to flee again. Upon the end of the Civil War, Andrew left America for nations where slavery persisted. Keeping his hands in local politics to keep slavery going and crush their souls. Andrew was forced to flee, injured, back to America and ended up in the homes of freedmen. Going into a frenzy, he butchered them and blamed the KKK, realizing that it was not the slavery, but the despair of those not considered people... Andrew cheerfully settled into southern politics, using his influence to make sure the lives of black people were as miserable as humanly possible.

Then the Civil Rights Movement hit and Andrew was terrified, trying to crush it utterly. He met Theo Bell, the Camarilla Archon and a former slave himself...the issue was that Theo wholeheartedly supported the civil rights movement and sought to elevate it. He and Andrew soon HATED one another.

In present? Quoting: "Focusing now on organized crime, he engages in various forms of human trafficking and illegal slavery. He is involved with brothels in which immigrants are kept imprisoned, with border-town sweatshops, and with farms in California, Texas, and Florida that employ migrant workers who are practically kept as slaves."

I'm pretty sure White Wolf has just forgotten he exists in the new editions because hahahahahaha yeah, THIS hasn't aged well.

Mitigating issues?

Uh, yeah, no. Andrew Seneca might have a genuine excuse in being a former slave. Guess what? He doesn't. Andrew embraced his new identity. He loves the despair in other slaves that he feeds from. He does everything he can to destroy their souls and hopes, keeping life firmly difficult for them. Th guy is unequivocally awful and his attitude towards the Civil Rights movements is "fuck you, got mine" coupled with anger and bitterness.

Seneca does everything he can to make life worse for millions, with forced slavery, human trafficking and more and I'm pretty sure the second White Wolf realizes this guy is still on their books is the second they have him Inquisition'd.

Conclusion?

Yes.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#321152: Aug 15th 2022 at 12:04:08 PM

[tup]Seneca

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#321153: Aug 15th 2022 at 12:04:58 PM

Yes to Seneca. Unburying my most recent EP.

[down] Yes, Raul Mariano is insufficiently heinous.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Aug 15th 2022 at 3:24:39 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#321154: Aug 15th 2022 at 12:18:38 PM

Comfortable yes to Seneca.

Sure to Vlad. Though I'm not sure if the clipping count even under our new rules. He mainly gets credit for his ultimate goal.

Mariano's son the one you said isn't bad enough?

Edited by ACW on Aug 15th 2022 at 3:39:15 PM

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#321155: Aug 15th 2022 at 12:26:05 PM

[tup] the Director, Vlad, Endeavor and Seneca

It's kinda satisfying to see two new Camarilla CMs—Enver and Seneca—proves that some of them are just as bad as the Sabbat.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#321156: Aug 15th 2022 at 12:56:22 PM

[tup] Andrew Seneca—sidenote, but I love his art shown the in the Wiki.

[tup] Righteous Endeavor

[tup] Vladimir Koskov

[tup] Director Gallagher

Watch me destroying my country
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#321158: Aug 15th 2022 at 1:01:20 PM

[tup] to Seneca and Vlad

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#321159: Aug 15th 2022 at 1:14:38 PM

[tup] Orochimaru, Iwao Daimon/Satan, Righteous Endeavor, Gallagher, Koskov and Seneca.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#321160: Aug 15th 2022 at 1:47:21 PM

What is the work?

"A Girl Named Hunter" is the 4th episode of Hunter's 6th season.

After the teenage girl, Cheryl Donovan, whose baby Det. Sgt. Rick Hunter delivered is found dead, Hunter and Det. Sgt. Dee Dee McCall discover a breeding ring using teenagers as birth mothers.

Who is Felicia Greene and what has she done?

Felicia Greene, an adoption attorney, is introduced talking to a couple of clients about the adoption process when she is notified that Cheryl Donovan is keeping her daughter.

Greene confronts Cheryl and tries to manipulate her into relinquishing custody of her baby, Hunter Donovan, by reminding her of all the costs Greene has covered for her, only for the baby's biological father, Randy Johnson, to accidentally kill her.

After Café worker Angela talks to McCall, Greene attempts to ensure Angela's silence by threatening to bring up her troubled past to the cops.

After Angela is found strangled, Hunter and McCall discover a book containing several pages worth of photos pregnant teenager photos at the scene of the crime.

One of the girls reveals that Greene regularly pays teenagers to get pregnant and relinquish custody of the subsequent children.

McCall arrests Greene for complicity in the murders of Angela and Cheryl.

Mitigating Factors?

Greene presents herself as respectable, but has no objections to exploiting teenagers as birth mothers, and is only upset about Cheryl's death due to the fact that it can incriminate her.

Likewise, she only treats her breeding stock superficially well for pragmatic reasons.

We see several pages worth of pregnant teenagers who have been exploited by Greene, and we see two of them and one of their babies in person.

Heinousness?

Greene has a subordinate impregnate several pages worth of teenage girls and has them illegaly sold.

We have other human traffickers, such as that one pimp operating out of trailers, but nobody gets to the sheer level of child exploitation that Greene gets to.

Bigfoot is a rapist with an attempted target count of 10, but he targets professional women in their 20s and 30s.

Judge Unger is involved in sex rituals and human sacrifice, with 2 of his attempted victims being underage, but while human sacrifice is suggested to be a regular occurrence for him, he does not target teens exclusively if his attempt to lure McCall to her death are any indication.

Verdict?

Quite possibly one of the creepiest Hunter contenders I will ever have.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Aug 15th 2022 at 4:49:39 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#321161: Aug 15th 2022 at 1:55:13 PM

I know this is completely irrational, but the fact she pays them gives me some pause.

It's a reason I wasn't 100% sure about Madeline Bullock, even before Wilkey came along (though at least Bullock had a few murders).

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#321162: Aug 15th 2022 at 1:56:24 PM

W: She facilitates serial statutory rape. No amount of money is gonna dull that blow for me, sorry.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Aug 15th 2022 at 4:58:19 AM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#321163: Aug 15th 2022 at 1:57:48 PM

To get this out of the way:

Dread X Collection 5: Director Gallagher from Rotten Stigma is a leader of the cult, that worshipped dark god Aoduk. Hoping to become completely immortal by asking Aoduk to put all the knowledge of the universe in him, Gallagher lured 12 children to Gallagher Sports Center, while also kidnapping several people, and started to experiment on them, mutilating them while they were still alive, recording every moment to sell as a snuff material, afterwards presenting their dead bodies to Aoduk, who turned them into feral mutated monsters. Trapping his wife in a "cocoon" in the bathroom for cheating on him, Gallagher offers a prize to anyone, who enters the bathroom and kills her, as she helplessly cries.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Aug 15th 2022 at 11:59:40 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#321164: Aug 15th 2022 at 1:59:07 PM

[up][up]Okay, that's fair. I'll switch to a not-100-percent-positive yes.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#321166: Aug 15th 2022 at 2:04:04 PM

What is the work?

"Blow-Up" is the 12th episode of Hunter's 2nd season.

When a bomb goes off near his late fiancée's grave, Hunter suspects a homicidal explosives expert who he had previously arrested.

Who is Otto Minsky and what has he done?

Otto Minsky is initially shown in the background of a funeral service, having planted a bomb on a memorial monument belonging to Sgt. Rick Hunter's late fiancée, endangering at least 12 people, killing several.

Having previously been responsible for a Jacksonville train station bombing and a bank bombing, Otto proceeds to gaslight Hunter by planting a fake bomb in a restaurant.

Otto then fakes a call to his "doctor", resulting in the detonation of a parcel bomb at the District Attorney's office.

Otto subsequently misdirects Hunter once more by pretending to have planted a bomb at a high school, before pretending to call his attorney, blowing up a package in a Van Nuys Courthouse.

Once Otto's attorney realises that Otto has been hiding information from her, she resigns as an attorney, and tells Hunter what she knows, despite having previously been a stick in the mud where the letter of the law is concerned.

Otto's final package is meant for McCall and McCall narrowly escapes the blast due to Hunter's intervention.

Hunter promises to press for capital punishment for Otto.

Mitigating Factors?

We see Otto plant a bomb at a cemetery where there is at least 12 people in range, and he is suggested to have a body count in the scores given the photographic evidence we have of his past work.

Otto is presented as having had a miserable time in his Florida prison, but it is not portrayed as particularly sympathetic.

Heinousness?

Now, Otto does not necessarily have the same body count as the firebug from "Fire Man", who killed an entire village in the military (and had his own flamethrower), but he does have a decent body count as a bomber, especially compared to the lovers from "62 Hours of Terror" who don't really endanger civilians.

Verdict?

Not a slouch.

[down] Ask MGD about that.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Aug 15th 2022 at 5:07:58 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#321167: Aug 15th 2022 at 2:06:07 PM

Tentative yes to Otto, pending the fire dude's EP.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#321168: Aug 15th 2022 at 2:07:50 PM

Otto seems fine, though like what STAR did with 1-800-Missing when he covered that series we may need a comparison of the actions of the keepers to make sure they stick out once you are done Sky.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Aug 15th 2022 at 2:10:15 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#321169: Aug 15th 2022 at 2:09:22 PM

I have no problem with that, Ordeaux.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#321170: Aug 15th 2022 at 2:18:42 PM

Sky, that's enough E Ps for a while. Come on, people. I know I did two, but I wouldn't have if I'd seen Sky and Vile's. Enough for like the next few hours so people can catch up

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#321171: Aug 15th 2022 at 2:22:09 PM

Don't worry, Lighty. Was not planning on doing any more for the rest of the day.

Yes to Righteous, BTW.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#321172: Aug 15th 2022 at 2:33:22 PM

[tup] to the Endeavor, Andrew and Sky’s

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#321174: Aug 15th 2022 at 2:48:45 PM

[tup] Vlad, Andy, Felicia, and Otto

It's Spooky Month!
ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#321175: Aug 15th 2022 at 2:58:23 PM

Not gonna vote on Greene as I haven't seen the show, but paying them seems like pragmatic villainy to me.

Just imagine something here.

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