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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#320851: Aug 12th 2022 at 10:53:27 AM

Also, there is a bit more to it than just the symbiote wanting to empower Peter; it was a parasitic alien which was taking him on swinging joyrides while he was asleep, and if anything established in the adaptations count in Reign's timeline, it almost made him into a brutal killer. Peter had pretty good reason for abandoning it, it's just that Venom is thinking about himself and nothing more.
If we're gonna factor the Earth-616 canon into Reign, at least to the extent it pertains to the Venom symbiote's relationship with Spider-Man, it had a very limited grasp of human emotions at the time and was — in its mind — only trying to help him be a "better" superhero, not understanding it was actually harming him by taking him out to fight crime while he slept or that using lethal force against criminals was a something that he would be horrified by. And once it realized it was hurting Peter by taking him out on joyrides and was taking the violence too far, it resolved to stop doing so... the day before he took it to Mr. Fantastic, discovered it was alive, and rejected it out of fear and disgust.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#320852: Aug 12th 2022 at 10:56:58 AM

Not sure why we're bringing up 616 for a what-if style comic?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#320853: Aug 12th 2022 at 10:59:08 AM

Because ImSpidey2 did, and most of the What If...? comics are offshoots of Earth-616 where something happens differently and sends everything flying off the rails — or at least make the assumption that everything happened as it did on Earth-616 up to the point of divergence specified by the title.

In the case of Reign, MJ dying of cancer from exposure to Peter's radioactive... ahem... body fluids, and retiring as Spider-Man out of despair and depression.

Edited by Arawn999 on Aug 12th 2022 at 11:02:07 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#320854: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:00:38 AM

Yeah but Reign has weird shit like Spiderman's radioactive sperm giving MJ cancer.

So I really wouldn't pull from 616 stuff their.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#320855: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:04:57 AM

[up] But the presumption inherit in "What If...?" comics is that the events of that universe still happened as they did on Earth-616 up to that point of divergence unless otherwise specified, ergo everything that happened to the Earth-616 Venom symbiote also happened to Reign's Venom symbiote, up until the point of divergence.

Edited by Arawn999 on Aug 12th 2022 at 11:10:02 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#320856: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:06:29 AM

Reign's not going to the Earth-616 tree. I'm exercising curator's prerogative on that.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#320857: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:09:22 AM

Love death robots has been renewed for season 4. Does Lighty still monitor it?

Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#320858: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:09:22 AM

[up][up] That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm just pointing out that if we factor Earth-616's revised symbiote lore into Reign like ImSpidey2 suggests, the symbiote still doesn't fit since it genuinely cared about and wanted to help Peter, but didn't understand it was doing more harm than good until it was too late.

Edited by Arawn999 on Aug 12th 2022 at 11:09:33 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#320859: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:10:08 AM

Yeah but in that comic, Venom is depicted as a massive dick whose destroyed any redeeming quality so no I don't think we need to care waht happened in the past.

Edit: [up]Wasnt that written after reign. .

Edited by miraculous on Aug 12th 2022 at 11:10:56 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#320860: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:12:31 AM

[up] To be fair, that's consistent with how the Earth-616 Venom symbiote was depicted during the late 1990s through to the mid-2010s, too. Which makes sense considering that's when Reign was written.


Edit: [up]Wasnt that written after reign.
Hmm... fair point. The first comic I can find from the symbiote's perspective during its time with Spider-Man — Spider-Man Family Vol 2 #1 — came out in 2007 while Reign came out in 2006, though there are comics from the late 1990s and early 2000s where the symbiote berates Peter for rejecting it when it only wanted to help him.

Edited by Arawn999 on Aug 12th 2022 at 11:18:01 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#320861: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:21:59 AM

X is indeed an eXtremely easy Keep! Definitely prefer Scrags's D image (uh oh) to the current one.

My second Xenoblade, the only candidate here that hails solely from a side quest:

Who is F? What has he done?

Consul/Moebius F is the Consul of Colony 0, a secretive Colony designed by F to be, basically, the Secret Police and string-pullers behind the Keves-Agnus war. F is downright smug over his hand in keeping the Forever War going, bragging that his efforts to manipulate information, silence those who know too much, and squash any real attempts at stopping the war are the single greatest contributor to keeping Keves and Agnus in constant bloodshed.

F's colonists are also of a different sort than most other Colonies...F has bred and raised them to be absolutely nothing but robotic, emotionless killers wholly dedicated to him and keeping the war going, all while acting as though he's a father figure who cares about them. In truth, F sees them as nothing but tools to be discarded at his leisure, even his personal "favorite" Segiri.

When the heroes begin interacting with Segiri and instilling real personality into her, F requests they return her to him safely in exchange for not causing trouble with the heroes' allies. Once Segiri is returned, F is positively gleeful to show off the true purpose of her and the rest of his people at Colony 0: F has planned all along to "overclock" them and drain them all of their life forces at the youngest age possible to power his new army of truly emotionless, robot killing machines.

Segiri pleads with F to spare the rest of her Colony from this fate, offering her own power—far greater than her fellow colonists—as sole sacrifice in exchange for their lives. F commends her for her selflessness....then unflinchingly overclocks the entire Colony anyway with smug satisfaction.

Luckily, our heroes defeat his forces and help Segiri kill F before too many of her fellow colonists are completely drained of life, saving them and ending Colony 0's war profiteering for good.

Mitigating features?

F is....oddly affable for a Consul. When he wants Segiri back, he politely requests the heroes return her to him and promises not to stab them in the back if they do, he boasts how proud and caring he is of his Colony, and he offers a genuine team-up with the heroes to share power in his Colony.

Thing is, it's very much used to show how utterly inhuman F is and winds up turning out to be far more "Faux" than he lets on. He keeps up the chipperness while revealing the soldiers he "cares" for have been designed by him to die for him and be used as nothing but Human Resources, and when Segiri offers her own life in exchange for her team, F once again shows polite praise for her attitude before cheerfully disregarding it without a second thought. It serves to somehow make him more of a douche than several of his fellow Consuls who are just sneering Smug Snake types.

Heinousness?

He's admittedly ignoring Y's Flame Clock contribution to the war here when he states he is the biggest factor to its continuing lol but F's proclamations that it's his efforts and Colony 0's entire purpose to ensure the Forever War keeps going? That alone puts F in a higher tier than most of his other Consuls. F brags that he systematically silences and eliminates any possible monkey wrenches that could result in peace between Keves and Agnus, and the fact that he's raised an entire squadron of children (who are young for Child Soldiers even in this story) as monotone killers who he plans to sacrifice at the youngest age possible for his war machines...and yeah, F has a very nice combo of being one of the biggest hands in the systemic horrors of the war and his personal treatment of his soldiers is a particularly nasty level of Bad Boss even for the Consuls.

Final Verdict?

Aaaand Keeper.

Edited by Ravok on Aug 12th 2022 at 11:23:57 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#320862: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:26:55 AM

Yes to F.

Possible header?

Feel free to tweak (and if there's a better word to use than "subordinates", lemme know).

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#320863: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:29:55 AM

Press F to say [tup] to F

It's Spooky Month!
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#320866: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:47:19 AM

Press F to [tup]

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#320867: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:49:35 AM

[tup] to Maciej Zarnovich, the Blood Mage, Heihachi Mishima, Carlton Drake, Governor Breck, the High Priestess, Enver Frasher, Michael, Chiba, the Killer/"Purple Guy", "D"/Blackblaze Dirk, Consul/Moebius Y, Hay-Tau, Steve Horn, Gerald Pillar, Francis Burner, X, and Consul/Moebius F.

[tdown] to the Fur Trader.

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#320868: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:51:24 AM

[tup] Xenoblade Chronicles 3 candidates. Keep Metal Face.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#320869: Aug 12th 2022 at 11:55:26 AM

Consider me an abstain on all Xenoblade stuff. I trust they all count, it's just I decided I wanna play them myself and be able to judge them myself. Cause there's a lot to XB.

Also, thanks to ACW for sending me a link to the Evil Will EP. There were some concerns about Moral Agency. I am happy to say that even with the old rules, the Evil Rule probably passes anyway. I apologise if this has been brought up and I missed it, but ten years after Hurricanger came out it received a follow up movie called... um, Hurricanger Ten Years After. Anyway, that film tells us when the Evil Will was destroyed it birthed a child, a Sentient Cosmic Force itself. Called The Sacred Force, it was even more powerful than its progenitor

and if the name's not a giveaway I'll just say it's a full on good guy. I'd argue that is enough to say The Evil Will chose to be a dick.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#320870: Aug 12th 2022 at 12:10:42 PM

Damn Library and Jack getting to the good Jokes

I will just say yes to all the letter guys sense I missed the earlier ones

Bow to the Prototype
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#320871: Aug 12th 2022 at 12:21:18 PM

[tup]X & F

EDIT: Meant to say X

Edited by nwotyzal on Aug 12th 2022 at 1:26:41 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#320872: Aug 12th 2022 at 12:50:13 PM

[tup]F.

[up][up][up]Adding on their are plenty of bad guys in Sentai history constructed from darkness or negative emotions of etc who have agency throughout the series'. Grandienne and her demon kids, Emperor Z of darkness and the shadow line, The deboth army, the Yōkai Daimaō and his corps...

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#320874: Aug 12th 2022 at 1:22:10 PM

May as well get this one out of my system:


What is the Work

Spider-Man — Bitten by a radioactive/supernatural spider, nerdy teenager Peter Parker gains superhuman powers and adopts the moniker Spider-Man. While he initially only uses his powers for fun and profit, his arrogance and spitefulness lead to his beloved Uncle Ben being murdered. Horrified, Peter dedicates himself to his uncle's creed of "With great power there must also come great responsibility" and becomes a superhero.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

Professor Miles Warren was seemingly a mild-mannered university professor who teaches biology, but in truth he developed a perverse obsession with Gwen Stacy (which Spider-Gwen reveals that she was aware of and considered creepy). When Gwen was murdered by the Green Goblin, Miles blamed Spider-Man for her death, adopted the supervillain persona of the Jackal, discovered that Spider-Man was his former student Peter Parker, and started cloning Gwen and Peter in order to have (a version of) Gwen for himself and take revenge on Spider-Man through an intricate plot to gaslight him into believing he was a clone. Miles' first clones, dubbed Abby L and Kaine, were infected by a degeneration ultimately dubbed the Carrion Virus and deemed failures, though they escaped Miles' attempt to kill them and became violent supervillains/antiheroes.

His next clone of Peter, Ben Reilly, was more successful and ended up being gaslit into believing that he was the real Spider-Man until he was killed by the Green Goblin and crumbled to dust. The Jackel collected said dust and used it to clone Ben dozens of times, then murder him in increasingly sadistic fashions to refine his cloning process... and for kicks and giggles. His third clone of Peter, Spidercide, turned into a bloodthirsty shapeshifting monster.

In the years since, Miles has:

  • Cloned himself to the extent that he can't remember which of his doppelgängers is the original anymore, treating the various versions of himself as expendable minions as a result (seeing how he can always clone more) — every instance of the Jackal apparently repenting, dying, and/or being trapped in an alternate universe has turned out to be a clone
  • Gene-slammed himself and several copies of himself into a green-furred Beast Man to fight evenly with Spider-Man
  • Promised Abby-L he'd stop making clones of Gwen Stacy... and immediately reneged on it
  • Refined the Carrion Virus into an actual pathogen capable of infecting and zombifying people, infecting one of his own clones, Malcolm McBride (although this was part of a plot by the High Evolutionary), and Dr. William Allen
  • Destabilized the Earth's ecosystems by attempting genocide on honeybees, purely For the Evulz
  • Teamed up with Adriana Soria to engineer a virus that would give people Spider-Man's upgraded powers before turning them into monsters (while planning to betray her to get his hands on her genetic material)
  • Stole research from fellow cloning-obsessed supervillain Mister Sinister to create a clone hybrid of Gwen Stacy, Cyclops, and Adriana
  • Engineered clones of Adriana's spider-goddess form intending to force Peter's apprentice Andrew Maguire to mate with them
  • Integrating the Carrion Virus into his cloning process in an attempt to ensure that his latest clones would painfully zombify and crumble to dust without a cure only he could supply

Miles later resurfaced incognito as a professor at Empire State University, where he gene-slammed a student into a giant rat-monster when she uncovered his identity and demanded he give her superpowers. Realizing an alternate universe Gwen Stacy (from Earth-65) was attending the university, Miles transferred his obsession to her and had the student "befriend" Gwen to keep tabs on her, implicitly murdered the student when he no longer had any use for her, and followed Gwen to Earth-65 intending to force her to become his Sex Slave — something Miles' own Earth-65 counterpart was disgusted by. Miles murdered his Earth-65 counterpart for belittling his obsession, but was knocked out by Earth-65 Mary Jane before he could do anything to Gwen. When Peter-616 found out that the Jackal had gone after Gwen, he was horrified and worried that Miles had raped her, only for Gwen to brush him off saying she escaped and that Miles would learn the hard way that she isn't the powerless Gwen Stacy of his world.

When Gwen was chased off Earth-65 by the Storm siblings, Miles abducted MJ and bonded a piece of Gwen's symbiote — in the Earth-65 continuity a highly radioactive parasite that quickly kills incompatible hosts — hoping that Gwen would somehow sense her friend was in danger and return to Earth-65 to rescue her, thus walking right into his trap... only for MJ to get warped to Earth-616 instead.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Mmmaybe. The instance of the Jackal regaining his sanity and sacrificing himself to save Spider-Man, Ned Leeds, and a clone of Gwen Stacy was actually one of Miles' clones, and the bomb that killed him was detonated by the real Miles Warren as a ploy to convince everyone he was dead, letting him manipulate events from behind the scenes.

However, in 1995 (a good 30 years after he was introduced and 22 years after he became the Jackal), Miles was given a backstory where he went to Mt. Wundagore and studied genetic engineering and cloning under Herbert Wyndham, the High Evolutionary. While helping Herbie refine his "New Men", Miles created a human-jackal hybrid that killed his first wife (who Gwen Stacy is said to be nigh identical to) and children, driving him insane and leading to him becoming obsessed with Gwen. However, Ben Reilly promptly calls the story's veracity into question, and to my knowledge it hasn't come up since.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Miles is one of Marvel's pre-emient experts on genetic engineering and cloning, standing shoulder to shoulder with the likes of the High Evolutionary and Mister Sinister — in fact, according to Jennix of the Inheritors he's better than they are since he can replicate the mystical essence of the spider-totems. He's cloned harems of Gwen Stacy clones, created two monstrous clones of Spider-Man who've gone on to murder numerous people (as well as one non-monstrous clone who's also gone on to murder people after being driven insane), tortured Ben Reilly into insanity by killing and resurrecting him dozens of times, and made his belief that any and all incarnations of Gwen Stacy in the Multiverse are his to do whatever he wants to very explicit.

Final Verdict?

I suppose whether the Jackel counts or not hinges on whether the story involving his wife is true or not, but either way he's a sleazy, sadistic SOB who gleefully plays with syringes and ruins lives For Science! and The Evulz, treats even his own clones as expendable test subjects, and his yandere obsession with Gwen Stacy transcends universes.


Edited by Arawn999 on Aug 12th 2022 at 6:20:23 AM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#320875: Aug 12th 2022 at 1:45:48 PM

[tup] to the other evil letters in Xenoblade Chronicles 3

Umm, I'm gonna abstain on Jackal because I'm checking on the Tropes he has in his character folder page and wonder how accurate they are before voting. Like:

  • My God, What Have I Done?: Briefly regained his sanity at the last moment and was able to save the Gwen Clone before dying in an explosion, or so it seemed.

This one makes me a bit concerned.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Aug 12th 2022 at 4:46:15 AM


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