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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#312526: May 20th 2022 at 5:00:13 PM

[tdown] KHII Scar, [tdown] Numb Chandelier, [tup] Shgshthx, [tdown]Oyecomova

@nwotyzal: As the one who'd proposed the manga versions of Ansem and Xemnas, I can say that manga!Ansem is just kind of a flat villainous character but who got some Adaptational Villainy in regards to his deeds and a lack of sympathetic qualities that made him a pretty easy keep for the time being, and manga!Xemnas is very different from his game canon counterpart, much less of a Tragic Monster Magnificent Bastard and more of an explicitly cruel and remorseless megalomaniac who was also given Adaptational Villainy in his actions.

Edited by ANewMan on May 20th 2022 at 7:02:08 AM

UsagiSan Mika Misono Since: Jan, 2022 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Mika Misono
#312527: May 20th 2022 at 5:01:23 PM

[tdown] KHII Scar

Mika Mika Mika Mika
SailorVenus372 Since: Nov, 2019 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#312528: May 20th 2022 at 5:03:47 PM

So Manga Xemnas is a sure keep, Manga Ansem not as clear?

Get Snuck-Up On.”
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#312529: May 20th 2022 at 5:11:28 PM

Third time on KH Scar. NA List is not necessary right now.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#312530: May 20th 2022 at 5:13:33 PM

Manga!Xenmas I am fine with staying but honestly I am personally thinking we should probably cut Manga!Ansem. From what New Man is describing it seems his case is more of an incomplete adaptation rather than a full Adaptational Villainy, in the same vain as Film!Olaf and Movie!Crocodile. Ansem from the first game was similarly irredeemable and heinous but it was later games that gave him the sympathetic traits. So yeah I am personally advocating a cut to him.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#312531: May 20th 2022 at 5:27:38 PM

I've resumed my MST3K binge from a couple years back, so here's a surprising Small Role, Big Impact villain from a film featured on the show.

What's the work?

The Leech Woman is a 1960 horror film. From the title, genre, and time period you'd expect it to be about an actress in a hilariously bad rubber leech costume slowly picking off idiot teenagers, but instead I'd argue it's one of the... "better" films featured on MST, as while it doesn't always succeed it at least tries to say some pretty profound things about imperialism, misogyny, and fear of growing old. June Talbot is a perfectly ordinary American woman, quite beautiful by any stretch of the imagination, who is unfortunately married to Paul, an egotistical surgeon who constantly puts down her looks and teases her about her fear of aging. The Talbots meet a mysterious African woman named Malla who claims to have been alive since the days of the slave trade, thanks to a mysterious plant that she claims slows the aging process, and with the aid of a certain other ingredient actually reverses it. Paul, being a complete narcissist, jumps at the idea of both making his wife fit his overly-narrow idea of hotness again and of being remembered as the man who "cured" old age itself, and so it's off to Darkest Africa the couple goes, braving jungle perils, angry natives, and... this prick right here:

Who is Bertram Garvay? What has he done?

A British trail guide in South Africa, Garvay radiates sheer egomaniacal smug in a way that puts even Paul to shame. He's only in it for the money, and in his mind the natives fall into two categories: mindless savages and mindlessly loyal servants, which he's just fine with. He accepts the job of taking the Talbots to Malla's tribe, where they meet up with the old woman herself, who explains that the secret ingredient that reverses aging is mixing the powder of the aforementioned plant with human pineal gland juice extracted from willing sacrificial victims using a ring with a razor-sharp ornament. Yum! However, the age regression lasts for only one day; the tribe's elderly women perform the ritual to be young and beautiful one last time when they are about to die. To the visitors' astonishment, the ritual works on Malla.

Garvay, fascinated, pulls an Eviler than Thou by persuading the unstable June into offering Paul as the next sacrifice. After she chugs the delicious pineal shake, he steals the ring and promises to run away with June and her new young, hot self. Garvay then covers his tracks by producing a giant sack of dynamite out of hammerspace and attempting to blow the entire village and everyone in it to smithereens holy shit! As the tribe's warriors chase them down, June and Garvay spend the night in a hiding place in the jungle, but, true to Malla's words, when June wakes up the next day, she looks even older than she did when she began. Garvay, a shallow prick in addition to a mass murderer, runs away in terror, and promptly falls into quicksand; he begs June for help, and she obligingly holds out a branch, with which she pulls Garvay closer, closer...

...until she can nail him with the razor ring and extract his sweet, sweet pineal-y goodness. She leaves him then to sink into the muck, where he belongs.

Mitigating factors?

Garvay is one of the more stunning examples of "sudden villain escalation" I've seen in a good while - we start with "sexist jerk doctor," move on to "grisly but non-malicious religious ritual," and then make an abrupt right turn into "blow an entire village's worth of people to gibs to save my own ass!" Even June herself, after becoming addicted to the age-regression procedure and ascending as the Final Boss of the film as the eponymous Leech Woman, only has two further kills, and one of them is a slimy pimp.

He's got no Freudian Excuse or real backstory of any kind, either.

Verdict?

Yeeeeeep.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#312532: May 20th 2022 at 5:33:33 PM

[tup]Numb & Bertram

Don't forget about Georgie's candidate.

Edited by nwotyzal on May 20th 2022 at 5:33:55 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#312533: May 20th 2022 at 5:39:34 PM

[tup] Numb and Bertram

It's Spooky Month!
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#312534: May 20th 2022 at 5:40:27 PM

Yes to Garvey and a weaker one to Numb Chandelier, sounds like they're just barely passing the standard.

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#312535: May 20th 2022 at 5:43:40 PM

[tup] to Betram and Numb

[tdown] to evil Jo Jo dude and Scar.

Edited by Powermaster201 on May 20th 2022 at 8:44:16 AM

SailorVenus372 Since: Nov, 2019 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#312536: May 20th 2022 at 5:50:13 PM

Also, here’s a video. It got shot down for being too long before, but I found a shorter version.

It’s The “Harold Saxon” Master having an army of Toclafane begin the end of the world, smiling sadistically all the while. He is Practically Joker.

Edited by SailorVenus372 on May 20th 2022 at 5:51:12 AM

Get Snuck-Up On.”
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#312537: May 20th 2022 at 5:54:16 PM

Keep both the Manga guys, [tup] to Betram

Bow to the Prototype
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#312538: May 20th 2022 at 6:13:32 PM

Yea to HT's, but no to Numb Chandelier. Really can't see that piercing the HS

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#312539: May 20th 2022 at 6:43:34 PM

[tup] to Bertram

[tdown] to Chandelier. Maybe in another setting she'd break HS, but based on what I know of Bleach I doubt it

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#312540: May 20th 2022 at 7:02:14 PM

Yes to Bertram. And no, KHII Scar still doesn't count and never will. I still don't recall that "destroy the Pride Lands" was ever actually explicitly his goal when he transformed into the Ground Shaker, especially compared to other nasties like the TRON duo and Frollo who are more explicitly attempting genocide, even though their capacity for real evil is also neutered.

SailorVenus372 Since: Nov, 2019 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#312541: May 20th 2022 at 7:09:46 PM

[up] And Jafar, who iirc actually descended into Omnicidal mania by the 2nd game

Get Snuck-Up On.”
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#312542: May 20th 2022 at 7:10:48 PM

Oh, yeah. Before he was Killed Off for Real. I was tempted to mention him but I didn't recall if the Omnicidal Maniac bit in my memory held up; seems it does, so we can toss one more villain on the list Scar fails next to.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#312543: May 20th 2022 at 7:13:51 PM

Yes to Betram, no to Scar and no to the Bleach villain, unfortunately I think the volume of nasty bad guys means he doesn’t quite measure up.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#312544: May 20th 2022 at 7:45:44 PM

[tup] Nishiomi, Shgshthx and Bertram

[tdown] Oyecomova, Scar and Numb

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#312545: May 20th 2022 at 7:57:28 PM

Chipping in with a quote proposal.

He doesn't have the compassion or the empathy required to care for anyone, and as far as any of his minions know, no; he's the personification of evil, and that wouldn't include the ability to relate to anyone other than his own selfish needs.
—Mark Hamill on Skeletor, Masters of the Universe: Revelation.

Edited by Riley1sCool on May 20th 2022 at 7:57:35 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#312546: May 20th 2022 at 7:58:10 PM

I already know the results, but is whoever ready for discussion on Multiverse of Madness?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#312548: May 20th 2022 at 8:12:53 PM

Yeah, the Scarlet Witch is obviously nowhere near this trope, despite the fact that the whole "incursion" thing mean multiple dimensions would have been destroyed on account of her selfishness, which means the standard is absolutely ratcheting up. Nobody else is anywhere close to being bad enough and Dormammu doesn't make any other appearances, so that's another goose egg for Disney Marvel!

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#312549: May 20th 2022 at 8:17:53 PM

Well we probably don't need to cut him quite yet I suspect Crossbones is going to be cut eventually with the standard continuing to get higher and him already barely scraping by.

I--Vanya--I Hantengu, the Upper Rank 4 from Belarus Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Hantengu, the Upper Rank 4
#312550: May 20th 2022 at 8:18:38 PM

Alright, so, I've been looking forward to proposing this guy, and since it's been 2 weeks since his story reached its conclusion (meaning that he won't make any more appearances, except for maybe some filler chapters, but even then none of these appearances will contribute to the story), I think it's about time to finally propose him here.

I just hope my proposal is not too bloated for people to refuse to read it on sight. I genuinely have a problem with keeping my writing short.

Well, here goes nothing...

What is the work?

Mike's New Ghostly Family is a fanfic written by Archcommander-Tenebros on Fanfiction.net. The basic premise is that the ghostly victims of Fazbear's tragedy were Barred from the Afterlife and must redeem themselves before being able to pass on to Heaven, their first step being making peace with Mike Schmidt, a former victim of their attacks. The story jumps back-and-forth between being a lighthearted fluff about the ghost children finally being able to relive their lost childhoods and a dark, serious story, especially when the ghosts' tragic pasts are involved. Also, Heaven and Hell exist in the world of the story, the Nightmare animatronics from FNaF 4 are demons from hell, Old Man Consequences is a supernatural entity, and there is some other weird stuff.

So, our candidate is none other than the instigator of the entire Fazbear tragedy: the man behind the slaughter himself, William Afton.

Who is William Afton and what has he done?

William Afton is the fanfic's main posthumous antagonist, already dead by the time events of the fanfic take place. Having grown up with an abusive father, he perceived his experience as a lesson that "no life holds value as the only person who'll care for you is yourself". Afterwards, his backstory is not to dissimilar from the games: he was a former friend and business partner of Henry Emily, co-founded Fredbear's Family Diner, founded Afton Robotics, created Funtime animatronics to kill in his stead, and, of course, he was a child murderer.

Even before killing his first victim, he intentionally made Fredbear's Family Diner animatronics to be more dangerous, and created Funtimes to kill children. His first victim was his own daughter Elizabeth, who sneaked off to play with Circus Baby, but animatronic killed her and her soul ended up possessing it. When Afton found out, he just left her to rot in Circus Baby's Entertainment and Rental, but saw in her case an opportunity to discover the secrets of immortality through Remnant.

Killing Charlie and five more kids at Fredbear's, he tried to get them to possess animatronics, forcing them all into a Fate Worse than Death. He also allowed Michael to mercilessly bully his youngest son Evan, and when Evan's head got crushed by Fredbear, William chose to unplug his life support under the guise of Mercy Kill, but in truth, he just didn't want to raise a disabled child and wanted to permanently silence Evan in regards of Elizabeth's death and Circus Baby's true purpose. He also sent Michael to CBEAR to set Elizabeth free, knowing that he'll get scooped and die. Later, in the 90's, he dismanted the possessed animatronics, only for the released ghosts to trick him into killing himself with unstable Spring Bonnie suit. However, Afton came back to life as Springtrap, and once he escaped Fazbear's Fright, he found Elizabeth again, ejected from Ennard, and exploited her fragile mental state to corrupt her into following his murderous footsteps. However, their plans would fail when Michael, Henry Emily and Charlie (in Lefty's body now) trapped them in false pizzeria and burned them all down, putting their souls to rest...and sending Afton to Hell.

In Hell, he learned that the ghostly victims of his murders made a new family with Mike Schmidt, one of Freddy's former nightguards, and decided to make a wager with Nightmare, his demonic tormentor, to try and break their new family apart while he would enjoy 1000 years free of torture. However, he lost the wager, because the bonds of Mike's new ghostly family (pardon the Title Drop, heh-heh) were strengthened instead, an outcome Nightmare placed his bet on, and Afton lost the minimal protections Heaven grants to the damned for 1000 years instead.

However, that would not be the end of Afton. After a year of tortures, he developed a thirst of vengeance against Mike Schmidt for giving his victims a happy ending and for worsenings his tortures. Collaborating with another demon lord, they grievously injured the Nightmare children and stole their essences, which were infused with Afton, turning him into Nightmare Springtrap. As Nightmare Springtrap, he escaped to Earth and rushed to Mike Schmidt's house to claim his revenge. However, Mike and the ghosts were prepared for his attack. The ghost children tried to stop him, but Afton destroyed their animatronic bodies and then attacked his ghostly daughter for betraying him, forcing Mike to bring attention to himself.

Nightmare Springtrap decided to possess Mike to attack his soul directly...which was a fatal mistake on his part, given that Mike's lucid dreaming made him a Domain Holder of his mindscape. After an epic Battle in the Center of the Mind, Mike stopped toying with Afton, revealed that the murderer never had a victory chance to begin with and subjected him to Cold-Blooded Torture before Nightmare came to throw him back to Hell. Nightmare and his demons developed a new torture method for him: the Ultimate Custom Night, forcing him to relive all suffering of every single nightguard that perished at Fazbear-related establishments.

While the main Afton's story is now over, his influence still lives on as Glitchtrap, a rogue Soul Fragment of William, brought to life by newly-revived Fazbear Entertainment via scanning Springtrap's circuits, that shares memories and personality with the main Afton. However, due to being a separate entity from the main Afton, he will be treated as a separate character. I'm planning to propose Glitchtrap as well should his arc reach its conclusion.

Freudian Excuse? Mitigating qualities?

Surprisingly, William does have a Freudian Excuse in that he had an abusive father...however, the story still makes it clear that his Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse, considering that quite a lot of children also had Abusive Parents, Mike Schmidt included, and they didn't turn out to be evil. Furthermore, William's actions prove that he ends up becoming much more of a monster than his father could ever be, translating his pain on innocent children who had nothing to do with his tragedy and subjecting them to And I Must Scream fate. The story also makes it clear that he never cared for his children, as he: allowed Evan to be bullied by Michael and then killed him by unplugging his life support after the Bite of '83; let Michael die at Circus Baby's in his stead; and even his supposed care for Elizabeth is subverted by the fact that he knowingly let her suffer alone in Baby's body at his cold facility of horrors, and when they met again, he tried to corrupt her into following his murderous footsteps.

Dood Slayer 136 once stated long time ago that he is a massive Butt-Monkey in Hell, with his torture being entirely Played for Laughs, which could prevent him from being taken seriously. While it's true that some of his tortures were comedic in nature (being forced to listen to "Friday" by Rebecca Black on loop or being beaten to death with a pot by Chica in "Ultimate Custom Night" torture), but DoodSlayer exaggerated their comedic nature; most of the tortures actually aren't that comedic. In fact, they are bordering between Black Comedy and Nightmare Fuel, with the comedy coming from how casually Nightmare animatronics talk about torturing him; otherwise, the tortures are actually pretty disturbing (being flayed alive and force-fed his own flayed skin by Nightmarionne or getting Eaten Alive from inside-out by Freddles, to name few examples). In other words, his torments in Hell are not too comedic to subtract his heinous points.

And no, his pre-fanfic crimes aren't Offscreen Villainy, because most of them were directly shown in the flashbacks (such as child murders or unplugging Evan's life support) and/or have direct "onscreen" impact as well, such as Elizabeth's mental issues and self-loathing.

Heinous standard?

The heinous standard is quite high, all things considered. We have the Nightmares and the other demons who gruesomely torture damned souls and wage wars with each other. We have the ghost children who murdered many innocent nightguards in their quest for revenge. And we have Fazbear Entertainment that was criminally negligent of its customers and employees' safety, doing almost nothing to prevent the deaths, simply due to seeing it as a waste of time and money. So far, these are the biggest ones in terms of heinousness.

However, Nightmare and other demons for the most part have more resources, their crimes are, for them most part, self-contained in Hell and usually happen offscreen for the most part, and, for Nightmare and his clan in particular, have genuine redeeming qualities in the form of understanding the value of family. The ghost children, meanwhile, murdered many innocent nightguards...but that's just it. Their crimes don't go beyond nightguard killings, and they're genuinely repentful for that. And even Fazbear Entertainment, for how criminally negligent they are, do not intentionally go out on their way to spread as much suffering as possible, even with their vast resources, and their evil comes more from stupidity, rather than genuine malice.

But William Afton? He unrepentantly murdered innocent children, knowingly forced them into And I Must Scream fate, made machines specifically to inflict such fate on more children, abused and neglected his own children, allowing them all to die for his selfish needs, corrupted his own daughter into becoming a killer, and showed no care for them whatsoever, seeing them all as tools to be used and discarded, managing to evoke disgust even from the Nightmares. And he's just a simple human who knows about Remnant and owns a robotics company. He definitely makes the most of his resources.

Final verdict?

Demons from Hell are morally superior to this guy. No, really. You do the math. As far as I am concerned, he's an easy yes.

EDIT: Trimmed down the EP as best as I could. I just hope it would be short enough to be acceptable...

Edited by I--Vanya--I on May 21st 2022 at 11:51:26 AM

"Ever since the day I was born, I've never once uttered a lie! I'm a virtuous weakling! As pitiful as I am, nobody shows me any sympathy!"

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