During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Master was a CM. Although, the 456 might violate the "no groups" rule.
Huh? Simm's Master wasn't a CM; he even redeemed himself in "The End of Time". The original series' Master might have been; I didn't watch it.
edited 11th Aug '14 7:31:41 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Well:
- The Master is seen as the Arch-Enemy of the Doctor for a very good reason...
- The Roger Delgado incarnation is the epitome of Faux Affably Evil and was often quite helpful to the Doctor if it served his purposes. He is also a petty, spiteful, murderous megalomaniac who values nothing more than power and angering the Doctor. Indeed, he admits in "The Sea Devils" that the only reason he's helping the eponymous creatures Kill All Humans is because the Doctor is fond of humans. Afterwards, at the end of his final regeneration and at the brink of death, he values nothing more than survival. Species, planets, even whole sections of the universe; there is no limit to what he will destroy to survive. And he finally achieves this by killing and hijacking the body of Tremas, quite probably the friendliest and most helpful person the Doctor has ever met who wasn't one of his companions (and thereby forcing the Doctor to look at the face of a murdered friend every time he fights him from then on).
- The resultant Anthony Ainley incarnation lacked any sort of foresight or consideration for the consequences of his actions, and, in a way, that made him even more dangerous. His first appearance has him accidentally obliterate approximately a quarter of the entire universe and go on to cause further death and destruction almost for the sheer fun of it. This incarnation of The Master was far less reserved, murdering any in his way and treating their deaths with a cool, amused disdain. Even the extermination of countless billions was nothing more than a pebble in the Master's path.
- The John Simm incarnation reaches new heights in the level of childish glee he experiences from mayhem and death. After conquering the Earth (the planet got better), his first action is to, for no reason whatsoever, order the execution of a tenth of the population, proceeds to rule a horribly and needlessly brutal regime, forcing his prisoners to watch while he incinerates the Islands of Japan just for fun, mistreating his servants, and beating his wife and ultimately aspiring to conquer the whole of time and space, and the only reason he refrains from enacting a Kill Em All ending is because he would also die. Even when dying after his abused wife shot him, the Master refused to regenerate, relishing the agony he caused The Doctor in leaving him the final Time Lord. His final words were a cold declaration: "I win."
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I can't speak about the earlier incarnations, like I said, but Simm's version has several redeeming features. First, he was retconned into a Freudian Excuse, having been deliberately driven insane by the Time Lords to serve their plan to escape temporal exile. Second, he rebels against this mistreatment at the end, throwing himself into the collapsing time bubble in order to stop the Time Lords from returning. The CM entry you cited appears to ignore "The End of Time" entirely.
His motivations don't matter in this case; he saved the entire universe, and that's enough to disqualify him. Nevertheless, he worked with the Doctor after spending multiple episodes trying very hard to destroy him. If a villain, however vile, displays Even Evil Has Standards, it disqualifies him.
edited 11th Aug '14 7:38:20 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"The Master's entire characer is his ego. To be used is utterly intolerable for him and he never once indicates he's sorry for anything that's occurred. He's simply furious at Rassilon.
Being driven insane like that hasn't ever, to my knowledge, been a fully redeeming feature. It doesn't make the Master much different from Kefka in my eyes.
And yes, motivations do matter. Saving the universe because it's the right thing is redeeming and cut-worthy. Saving the universe purely incidentally because you're an egotistical sociopath and you can't stand the guy destroying it winning after he used you? Not so much.
edited 11th Aug '14 7:39:10 AM by Lightysnake
Kefka never allied with the heroes to stop a worse threat. The Master's actions alone would be enough to disqualify him regardless of whether you think his motivations were heroic or selfish.
Plus, there's the fact that the Doctor clearly views the Master as a tragic figure no matter how many terrible things he does. Sympathy for the Devil, maybe, but it is enough to bring him into the 99% range.
edited 11th Aug '14 7:41:01 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I question Rassilon being a 'greater threat' given the Master's scheme was just as evil as his, with just as much sadism and cruelty thrown in, if not more.
You're stipulating to the fact the Master didn't care about saving the universe. All he cared about was punishing Rassilon for what Rassilon had done to him.
That's not a redeeming quality. A villain's goals will sometimes line up with stopping other villains for selfish reasons. The Red Skull would team up with the heroes to stop people like Apocalypse or Selene because his ultimate goals would be threatened by them. Sabertooth has teamed up with the X-men at times out of self interest.
It doesn't really much anything if the motivation isn't there
Also, the Doctor's views are irrelevant. They're driven entirely by the fact he believes the Master to be the only Time Lord left in existence. That means nothing to how the Master himself behaves and feels
edited 11th Aug '14 7:46:24 AM by Lightysnake
I'm sorry, but again we seem to be experiencing different versions of the story. The Doctor and the Master, however temporarily, allying in opposition to Rassilon, proves that it is possible to reach him — that he is not completely irredeemable. Any doubt disqualifies a character from CM status.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"The episode shows us that the Master is an egomaniac and sociopath who turns on Rassilon out of anger that Rassilon manipulated and used him.
All that shows is the Master will stop another bad guy for purely selfish reasons. We've never held Enemy Mine as a redeeming trait that way. If the Master helped because he leigtimately cared for the world or the Doctor, that'd be another story.
In general, motivations do matter. Hell, even saving the world may simple be Pragmatic Villainy. Let me quote some lines from Lego Marvel Super Heroes:
- Iron Man: Maybe the bad guys can help? I guess technically that's a 'bad' idea.
- Mr. Fantastic: Ironic, I mean, if Earth is gone, who do they have to menace with evil plots? Each other?
- Magneto: I suppose assisting you is preferable to the entire planet being destroyed... if only marginally.
- Magneto: Your enemy is as as abominable as the rest of you... it's either this or become Galactus-food, remember? So let's just find Doom and get this over with!
Motivations and actions matter, and both have to be 100% evil to qualify for Complete Monster.
The Master's life was driven by egomania. When his self-importance was shattered by Rassilon, he could have chosen to let the world be destroyed, but he didn't. Vader could have let Luke die.
Looked at another way, the Master was a tool crafted by the Time Lords for the express purpose of fulfilling their scheme to escape Gallifrey's time lock. Even if you utterly disregard the idea that he might have been redeemable in some way, the moral agency responsible for his existence rests ultimately with the Time Lords. They overshadow him to an enormous degree.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I don't agree that it was selfish vengeance. You seem determined to take the worst possible interpretation of his actions. The Whoniverse (at least in the modern series) seems disinclined to present its villains as wholly evil, and it seems clear to me that we are intended to share the Doctor's point of view about the Master being tragic rather than monstrous.
edited 11th Aug '14 8:31:03 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I just rewatched the scene in question. The Master makes a Heroic Sacrifice to save the Doctor's life. It took being dissed by Rassilon to make it happen, but that's how these things typically go. Big Bad confronts Bigger Bad, is told that he's a worthless peon, revolts against Bigger Bad, providing a way for The Hero to win the day without personally killing anyone.
Edit: As a matter of fact, the act that triggers the Master's sacrifice is the Doctor choosing to shoot the machine generating the time rip instead of him, saving his life. He didn't have to stop Rassilon; he could have let the Doctor die. His sacrifice was completely unnecessary if he was acting selfishly.
edited 11th Aug '14 11:52:52 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Since it's been requested, here's a post on the new Turtles villains:
Who are they and what have they done?
The people in question are the Big Bad Duumvirate of mysterious Japanese evildoer the Shredder (real name never revealed) and Corrupt Corporate Executive Eric Sacks, Shredder's disciple. Given the late decision not to have the latter actually be the former they're rather similar in the finished movie. The big thing that counts in favor of inclusion is their plan to unleash a poison gas on New York City (blaming it on Shredder and his Foot Clan), and after a month or so have Sacks present a mutagen-based cure to the city, which will result in the two being able to lord over the city like gods. This plan is why they need the turtles, because in their blood is the last of the mutagen. When it comes to individual actions:
- Shredder: His main objective seems to be to restore the Foot Clan to its former glory as a criminal empire. Tells Karai to threaten innocents in order to draw out the turtles. He's the Authority Equals Asskicking Big Bad to Sacks's Non-Action Big Bad, and has a pretty brutal fighting style (though attempting to kill the heroes brutally seems like standard villain behavior). Has a line at one point about dining on turtle soup, which could be a joke and not actually implying eating four sentient beings, but he's otherwise rather humorless.
- Sacks: Seems to be motivated solely by Greed. Killed April's dad when he found out about the plan and had set the lab ablaze, but that's arguably offscreen (we see Mr. O'Neill dying in a flashback, but not Sacks shooting him). Insists on draining the fully conscious turtles he's captured of all the blood in their veins (but that's mostly because he needs what's in their blood).
Excuses or other disqualifiers?
Shredder is mentioned as having served as a mentor for Sacks (who was born on a military base in Okinawa) after the latter's father died in Vietnam, making him kind of a parental substitute, but beyond that it's not implied that love or caring exists between the two, only a profitable professional bond.
Conclusion
The plan is vile, but the villains themselves are kinda devoid of personality (it's not even clear who came up with their scheme). Plus, there's the apparent loyalty Sacks has to his master. I'll abstain from voting at the moment.
edited 11th Aug '14 12:19:38 PM by LordXavius
I'm surprised nobody suggested Earth Queen Hou-Ting from The Legend Of Korra. She called her kind-hearted father from the previous series, Earth King Kuei, a fool for his peaceful ideals. It was heavily implied (but said to only be rumored) that she ate his beloved pet bear, Basco, right after he died. She hired a group of poachers to hunt and kill Sky Bison, which are now endangered. Finally, her worst act was rounding up the new Air Benders in prison camps so she could brainwash them into being her personal army.

With the worthy opponent thing, I think it matters to the extent that it is reciprocal (and even then not necessarily)- What I mean, is that if the hero views their relationship with the villain as a (friendly) intellectual contest, then one might question the extent to which the work considers the villain heinous.
I'm not actually sure if he was counted as a CM (I think so?), but this was something that made it confusing for me when evaluating The Master (specifically the Simm version) in Doctor Who, as the Doctor will always forgive him and seems to take his atrocities more in stride than any sane person would.
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