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Ok it was mentioned there is not a thread for Law Enforcement Officers (LEO for short)and other similar jobs for discussion.

This is for discussing the actual jobs, ranks, training, culture, relations to military bodies that exist, and any other variety of topics that can arise pertaining to the World of Policing.

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#6301: Jun 10th 2019 at 8:58:23 PM

[up][up] I won't.

I'll concede on those protesters being racist assholes, and I'll concede that the police may not have actively been supporting the Nazis, but I will maintain that more needed to have been done and that giving us the news that Nazis were able to crash Pride on top of all the other negative things that has happened recently precludes this being called a "success" for the police, unless one's idea of success only extends to preventing an active shooter situation and nothing more.

Edit: I'm in too much of a cold anger right now to like this pagetopper, so it gets a zero out of ten from me.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Jun 10th 2019 at 11:59:16 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#6302: Jun 10th 2019 at 9:12:14 PM

[up] From what M84 has said on the Nazi strategy, the police actively attacking/arresting the Nazis (who were going out of their way to not be the aggressors in any conflict) would have made them martyrs to a huge segment of the population, which...we really don't need headlines and media coverage framing them as victims of the police whose freeze peach is getting silenced.

Not giving the Nazis the publicity they wanted or the media coverage they craved I'd say is a victory, even if it isn't the total "Nazis gtfo for good" victory we all want. We exist in the era of actual "this bigot is totally relatable and normal" rhetoric, and remember that "Alt-Right" as a term was coined as a normalization euphemism of neo-Nazis and other heinous thought. I've seen more than enough "poor, oppressed bigot" narratives to be sick to death of any possibility of that narrative being trotted out again.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Jun 10th 2019 at 9:15:14 AM

Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#6303: Jun 10th 2019 at 9:21:03 PM

[up] Look, I'm too tired and angry to keep posting here for now, but I'll make one last post for the night.

They'll do it anyway.

Sooner or later, they have to be challenged. And when that happens, they will cry that they're being oppressed either way. The media will continue to write fawning pieces on bigots regardless. I'd argue that to act now will stop or at least slow the normalization, that treating them like the domestic terrorists they are and arresting them when they harass minorities will help turn the public against them.

Because the more we treat it as normal and allowed, the more that it is.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#6304: Jun 11th 2019 at 3:12:18 AM

[up] You can’t treat them like domestic terrorists or arrest them for harassment if they haven’t done either of those things yet. Unfortunately, being a Nazi is protected speech in the US, and it’s not on police officers to decide what speech should be protected in the moment.

They should have sent a poet.
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#6305: Jun 11th 2019 at 3:54:06 AM

Man, people who have dangerous misconceptions on how police should operate screaming about Nazis sure is no fun.

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#6306: Jun 11th 2019 at 6:00:58 AM

[up][up] See, to me the problem is people a armed with guns and Nazi flags at a pride parade not being considered "harassment". Or even terrorism, for that matter.

Like, what the fuck do you thing these three things (guns, Nazi flags, at Pride) together communicate?

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#6307: Jun 11th 2019 at 6:03:09 AM

[up] Oh, I don’t think it should be legal to espouse Nazi beliefs whatsoever.

That’s a problem with the law though, not a problem with the cops.

They should have sent a poet.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#6308: Jun 11th 2019 at 6:11:59 AM

[up] It is a problem with cops because they often do act unlawfully, and it is usually to imprison or murder minorities, and they tend to get away with it.

The problem is that cops are much better at acting lawfully when it benefits white supremacists, and to behave unlawfully when it hurts minorities.

Even if they acted rightfully in this particular incident, on isolation, I argue it is still an evidence of a larger problem because if tables were reversed, there would be a high chance the police would crash down violently on the counter protesters.

Edited by Heatth on Jun 11th 2019 at 10:12:35 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#6309: Jun 11th 2019 at 6:18:50 AM

[up] That logic basically is going: "The Cops" (as if they were a monolithic organization) break the law sometimes, then to compensate for that, they must break the law for things that I support.

It would set a even worse precedent.

Watch me destroying my country
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#6310: Jun 11th 2019 at 6:23:31 AM

[up]x5 I'm still here, which means if you're going to condescend me I can still tell.

[up][up] This is pretty much what I was trying to get at. Police have broken the rules so many times before that I'm a little apprehensive when the DPD start claiming that there was nothing they could have done to prevent an armed gang of white supremacists from showing up.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#6311: Jun 11th 2019 at 6:26:24 AM

Except antifa was there. And were being racist jackasses towards the cops. And yet, the cops did not lose control and beat them.

Maybe you should reserve the anger for when the cops actually do fuck up bad.

The cops did their job by keeping the Nazis away from the parade and keeping the peace between them and antifa despite both groups doing their best to provoke them with racist epithets.

Edited by M84 on Jun 11th 2019 at 9:29:10 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#6312: Jun 11th 2019 at 6:34:51 AM

[up][up][up][up] What should DPD have done differently here, then?

And I’ll point out that cops show up at left wing protests and do this same stuff. It's just not controversial then. I mean, they were defending left wing protestors here.

[up][up] You do realize that’s literally an eye for an eye, right?

Edited by archonspeaks on Jun 11th 2019 at 6:39:30 AM

They should have sent a poet.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#6313: Jun 11th 2019 at 7:20:53 AM

[up] Isn't even eye for an eye. Is "you broke the law to do a bad thing, now you should break the law for something that I support".

Watch me destroying my country
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#6314: Jun 11th 2019 at 8:12:28 AM

To borrow military terms, Nazis can’t be beaten in the open field nowadays, you have to use Fabian tactics to take them out. It’s a long, tedious, frustrating and boring process but it will get the job done without setbacks.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#6315: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:54:15 AM

Okay, for starter I am perfectly fine with not obeying stupid or evil laws. And I think a law that is okay with allowing Nazis to pull this sort of bullshit is both.

That being said, I was not even advocating the cops should have acted differently. I don't buy for a second that this was the best thing they could have done but, whatever, no one died that is good. The thing is, I refuse to give the police credit. I refuse to buy they are allies. They don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. If from now on, the police, as an organization, do, indeed, start to actually obey the fucking law and not to oppress people anymore, then I will accept this was the first step of their face turn. Until then, this was, at best, a fluke and I don't trust them and I will defend everyone who doesn't trust them.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#6316: Jun 11th 2019 at 10:22:59 AM

[up] That seems like a borderline-nonsensical position to hold, not to mention one that’s impossible to debate.

What do you suggest the police should have done differently here?

Edited by archonspeaks on Jun 11th 2019 at 10:23:55 AM

They should have sent a poet.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#6317: Jun 11th 2019 at 10:42:19 AM

That is borderline Circular Reasoning mixed with a explicit declaration of seeing things with hindsight bias

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jun 11th 2019 at 12:43:27 PM

Watch me destroying my country
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#6318: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:12:28 AM

I think the idea is more that the police should be praised if this represents a genuine change of heart away from engaging in corrupt practices and toward following the law when policing, however if tomorrow they cover up the shooting of an unarmed (or even armed) black man than we can see that their choice to follow the law this time wasn’t out of a genuine desire to be better, but out of a desire to find a way to cover their ass while protecting nazis.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#6319: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:16:35 AM

[up] I’m not sure I follow. Are you saying that doing the right thing is only a good thing when it involves the people we like?

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#6320: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:44:18 AM

More that we shouldn’t praise them for doing the right thing if they did it for terrible reasons, especially if they immediately go back to doing the wrong thing.

If an addict stops using for a day that’s generally good, but if they only stopped using so they had enough focus to commit a robbery that’s a pretty mixed situation, especially if they then go back to using.

The police should follow the law because that’s their job, not because it’s a handy way for them to help nazis.

Edited by Silasw on Jun 11th 2019 at 6:45:09 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#6321: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:51:37 AM

[up] I’m really not sure I buy the idea that the police doing the right thing here is evidence they’re secret Nazi sympathizers.

Numerous officers were wearing pride pins. They were there to keep the Nazis out of the event and to prevent them from making violent contact with pridegoers as much as they were there to keep counterprotestors away from them.

Police are not a monolithic entity. DPD has over 2000 officers, and officers don’t get to pick and choose their assignments for the day. Unless you’re implying that every officer in DPD supports Nazism, including the supervisors who set up the post and the civilian employees who issued the permits, the case for these officers secretly being sympathizers is weak. I’ll point out that DPD is one of the most diverse major police forces in the country and you can see in the video a significant amount of the officers working the protest were women and POC.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jun 11th 2019 at 12:01:19 PM

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#6322: Jun 11th 2019 at 12:07:50 PM

The case of the individual beat officers, yeah that’s a weak case, the case for DPD’s leadership and institutional culture being Nazi-sympathetic is different from individual officers. I don’t know enough about DPD to tell which way they go, I admit that based on them being a major city US police force my assumption is that the culture leans towards Nazi-sympathising, but I’m more than happy to be corrected if I’m wrong.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#6323: Jun 11th 2019 at 12:27:41 PM

[up] If it was Chicago PD then I’d buy them being Nazi sympathizers. DPD is pretty diverse force and is one of the only major metro area forces to have majority POC upper leadership. They’ve had some problems for sure, but they’re one of the better ones.

And I’ll point out that this whole conversation started because people were claiming the officers on the ground had done the wrong thing and were Nazi sympathizers, which is clearly wrong on both counts.

They should have sent a poet.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#6324: Jun 15th 2019 at 5:15:45 PM

Speaking of which, the Police forces are pretty much a magnet for conservatives and far-right nutheads looking for a power-trip.

It massively pains me that liberal and progressive people either outright tend to dislike police officers and most don't consider joining the police forces as a career option.

I'm sure having more liberals joining the police would massively help changing the policies involving discrimination.

I take some solace that the São Paulo Military Police at least is attempting to root out bigotry through adding Human Rights courses and screening for bigoted behavior in their evaluating process. But it is so easy to let bigoted thinking fly under the radar.

Inter arma enim silent leges
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#6325: Jun 15th 2019 at 7:01:11 PM

I think we mentioned before in the Politics thread about how careers tend to appeal to certain sides of the political spectrum by design. The most plausible solution right now would be, as you mentioned with Sao Paulo's police, to try to increase the prodding in the selection process to weed out the bigots and have the cadets take human rights and police brutality courses.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.

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