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Ok it was mentioned there is not a thread for Law Enforcement Officers (LEO for short)and other similar jobs for discussion.

This is for discussing the actual jobs, ranks, training, culture, relations to military bodies that exist, and any other variety of topics that can arise pertaining to the World of Policing.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#276: Aug 23rd 2012 at 11:52:43 AM

Maddy: The thing is we don't have more options. We have a lot of the same shackles.

Who watches the watchmen?
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#277: Aug 23rd 2012 at 11:57:19 AM

Tomu, Law enforcement doesn't have much in the way of concrete examples of the type you're asking for. Each situation is somewhat different from each other similar situation, and each one has to be handled to account for those differences.

What could have been done differently and how it might have turned out in that case is by definition a hypothetical situation, and a hypothetical situation by definition can't be concrete.

Training and education gives a LEO a broad outline of what has worked in the past, what might work, and what probably will work. Experience fills in more details. No one ever has a completely perfect picture.

^ Teuf: Which "we"? The military?

edited 23rd Aug '12 11:57:56 AM by Madrugada

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#278: Aug 23rd 2012 at 12:01:26 PM

I'm talking about changing policy. What is the policy that people want changed, what do they want to change it to, and what is the empirical evidence that the existing policy is worse than the new policy?

There has to be something convincing.

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#279: Aug 23rd 2012 at 12:32:29 PM

The policy in question is making it so that there is a different class of law enforcement officer on the basis of having a bachelors degree. Namely being able to get into police administration immediately instead of having to work your way up from being a street cop to being in administration. The idea behind this is that overall, inexperienced people with a degree will perform better than an experienced cop who may or may not have a degree.

I was giving my personal anecdote based on my military and police experiences, both personal and non-personal, that this is a bad idea.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#280: Aug 23rd 2012 at 12:39:58 PM

There isn't any real policy as in: "Words on paper tell us we have to do this."

It's more of a tradition.

The thing with Law Enforcement and Military both is you kinda have to live it to get it. It's weird, but it's not an occupation, it's an ethos. Fire fighters, nurses, and EM Ts have similar and sometimes overlapping cultures.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Sandor from London/Cambridge Since: Oct, 2009
#281: Aug 23rd 2012 at 1:16:11 PM

I was giving my personal anecdote based on my military and police experiences, both personal and non-personal, that this is a bad idea.

This can often have some downsides yes, as you've nicely highlighted.

However, I think the extent of experience required is often given undue importance. I know plenty of guys with tremendous amounts of time on the job, who are complete and utter fuck ups, and people with six in who I'd given tremendous trust to.

If we insist on experience as the only marker, we lose plenty of very good potential candidates, often at times when they're most ready to make the sacrifices we need, and bring something new to the position. The motivated and ambitious people are going to leave when they find out it's going top be an average of ten years to hit Sgt - when they can go to the corporate world and have real responsibility in a fraction of that time. And yeah this has real downsides.

That also ignores that what makes a good beat cop is often miles from what makes a good leader, and knowing your Pt Ps flawlessly doesn't make you a decent end term policy planner.

You just need to ask your average coppers opinion on drug legislation, approaches to D Vs, and the importance of effective paperwork and community liaison to see that.

"When you cut your finger, I do not bleed." Response of a man who lived on the outskirts of a concentration camp.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#282: Aug 23rd 2012 at 1:25:27 PM

A degree doesn't make you a good leader either. A bad leader without any or little experience is worse then a bad leader with experience. Beat cops who work their way up to being leaders from the ground up are going to have much better understanding and knowledge of how things work at the pointy end.

Some guy with a degree who has barely walked a beat in his life is out of touch with the guy working the various jobs from beat cop on up because he is lacking a common experience to draw on. A guy who worked in their shoes 4-6 years is another story.

Barkey also gave a good qualifier that you seemed to have missed. A degree plus experience.

No one said experience is the only factor but is definitely an important one. There is a difference between adjusting the balance of time in service to get promoted and then saying fuck the experience you have a degree.

Your average copper won't be able to learn or grow beyond being stuck on the street if you use a program that condemns to it.

Maddy; Yes we the military.

edited 23rd Aug '12 1:29:52 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
Sandor from London/Cambridge Since: Oct, 2009
#283: Aug 23rd 2012 at 1:38:54 PM

Degree isn't the only qualification we're talking about here, it just makes the applications close to manageable. It's going to be a long drawn out process cutting down from four thousand candidates who meet the criteria to one fifty (fewer then one in twenty six getting picked up), with further loss over the training and first few years.

Theoretically they're going to have selected for the best people, who they can then give a huge investment of resources to make the most effective leaders they can - whilst maximising their time in the service.

They will have the time as boots on the ground unlike the military model, it's just going to be limited.

"When you cut your finger, I do not bleed." Response of a man who lived on the outskirts of a concentration camp.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#284: Aug 23rd 2012 at 1:42:33 PM

Also note that a degree is "signaling" to prospective employers that "this person can take and pass classes." Whenever you have a training program, you want people who can take and pass the training program. So, the degree itself should signal that a given candidate is more apt for the program than someone who doesn't have a degree.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#285: Aug 23rd 2012 at 1:45:24 PM

If the only concern for this to cut down the number of candidates they could have just simply added a couple qualifiers or tightened up current regs to narrow down available candidates. For example more stringent testing and job performance standards. Shutting out anyone without a degree is going to do more harm then good in the long run.

Who watches the watchmen?
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#286: Aug 23rd 2012 at 1:47:11 PM

Lots of organizations hire executive managers from outside the firm, and lots hire people who never had to work their way up the hierarchy. I've consulted with successful corporate organization where the top executives haven't the slightest idea what the rank and file actually do on a daily basis, and don't consider that they need to know, since supervising them isn't their job.

That said, paramilitary organizations are a different breed. The argument against hiring inexperienced administrators is too obvious to state. The argument for it would run along the lines of "if you only promote internally, then you risk cultural stagnation, because the executives will be too tradition bound and not open to really new ideas." Outsiders are assumed to be able to think outside the box in ways that people with lots of seniority wouldn't. Whether that is actually true in police work I couldn't say. But I have heard that the best organizations mix insiders and outsiders together on the same teams.

edited 23rd Aug '12 1:47:45 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#287: Aug 23rd 2012 at 1:51:05 PM

If we insist on experience as the only marker, we lose plenty of very good potential candidates, often at times when they're most ready to make the sacrifices we need, and bring something new to the position. The motivated and ambitious people are going to leave when they find out it's going top be an average of ten years to hit Sgt - when they can go to the corporate world and have real responsibility in a fraction of that time. And yeah this has real downsides.

I guess if we had to sum up anything that I was trying to say, it would be this:

Experience must always be a qualifier. Education is also valuable and should be a game-changer, but experience needs to be utterly required.

^

The thing with this is that in an organization where the people who do the footwork do something that is as abstract and often life threatening or life saving as policework, you can't have leadership not being extremely knowledgeable in that regard. Out of touch leadership in a paramilitary organization risks lives. Having some asshat in a suit who only works on statistics is not the type of guy who should be in charge of a police department. They need to be part of that percentage of officers who pursue education, have on the ground experience, and have massive drive to do good work.

edited 23rd Aug '12 1:56:21 PM by Barkey

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#288: Aug 23rd 2012 at 1:54:35 PM

How does one get experience without experience, anyway?

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#289: Aug 23rd 2012 at 1:58:02 PM

^

In a police or military career, it's easy. It's called coming in as a grunt or beat cop. It doesn't require a degree, and has all the same requirements needed to get in as leadership. You still have to pass the fitness test, and you still have to pass your tests.

The point is that you have to be a common troop before you are qualified to have the responsibility of the lives of other common troops in your hands. Letting some guy with a masters in administration just show up and be in charge is bullshit, it's a slap in the face to the people who work hard and risk their lives who feel that they could someday be a Lieutenant or Captain.

It's called paying your dues, and in these particular career fields it is vital and essential, because people die otherwise.

edited 23rd Aug '12 2:01:27 PM by Barkey

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#290: Aug 23rd 2012 at 2:01:05 PM

Okay. But then, what incentive does anyone have to have to get a degree? A degree is totes expensive, both in terms of cash and in terms of time. If you can't expect that it'll translate into early on increased earning potential, then you're basically saying "for anyone doing the mental calculus as to whether a degree is worthwhile or not, those individuals shouldn't pursue a degree in law enforcement." Now, I'm not even saying that shouldn't be the case-if the alternative is to have people who are unqualified "rising to the level of their incompetence" then maybe having law enforcement without higher education is just fine.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#291: Aug 23rd 2012 at 2:01:28 PM

There is a distinct difference between bringing in some new blood and shutting out a large portion of your experienced members. They could always initiate programs where they bring in staff from different departments or hire from other offices like Barkey suggested. You can get folks with different experiences, outlooks, and very likely ways of conducting their departments.

Also that is how some businesses run. The company I guard all the executives have a pretty good idea of what goes on in their building. But it is necessary for them to sell their services to clients to be familiar with what the employees do and they are also a smaller business. When they are big companies I can see a reason for ignoring the bulk of the company.

Tomu: They system does not exist to employ someone with a degree. Nor should it be designed to be. Personally I like barkey's approach or having a degree giving you leg up in the selection process as long as you past the rest of requirements. Making having a degree a requirement to even try for the position is unfair to those who may be equally qualified by virtue of their hard work, experience, and willingness to learn how it all works outside of going through a formal education.

edited 23rd Aug '12 2:07:02 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#292: Aug 23rd 2012 at 2:02:44 PM

^^

LAPD has a policy of giving raises to people who get degrees and higher education. They don't automatically translate to more authority, but they do make your chances better when it comes time to board for a promotion.

Education is no excuse to skip on paying your dues. Once again I'll repeat, regardless of your education, in a hands on abstract job that is hard to educate people on, experience is a pre-requisite for leadership.

edited 23rd Aug '12 2:06:33 PM by Barkey

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#293: Aug 23rd 2012 at 2:03:26 PM

For the record, I think America really overplayed the "you have to have a degree-a degree is a golden ticket" card. We started focusing on quantity over quality.

[up] Well, are people with lower levels of authority but degrees actually contributing more to the LAPD due to those degrees? I mean, like I said-the main reason why employers would want people to have degrees is signaling, which becomes less relevant after they're already employed. Hmmm...

edited 23rd Aug '12 2:04:35 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#294: Aug 23rd 2012 at 2:07:58 PM

Barkey: Now that works for me. You have a degree you command a higher salary and have better prospects for promotion.

Tomu: College degrees are sadly over hyped these days.

edited 23rd Aug '12 2:08:41 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#295: Aug 23rd 2012 at 2:08:27 PM

In my experience with LAPD, which is knowing tons of officers, both in my guard unit and in my family, having a degree makes you more likely to be accepted at the ground floor as an officer initially, and makes you more likely to promote than if you otherwise had no degree.

edited 23rd Aug '12 2:09:36 PM by Barkey

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#297: Aug 23rd 2012 at 2:22:47 PM

In my view, the police (and armed forces) should make a better job of identifying people within the ranks who are suited for "officer school".

A brighter future for a darker age.
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#298: Aug 23rd 2012 at 2:32:42 PM

I feel education has nothing to do with it, and that mindset and attitude does.

Law Enforcement is just a little too abstract. The only parts of education that can really help an LEO is actual knowledge of the law, and even then very specifically criminal justice. That's why so many people who aspire to be cops go straight to college at 18 for a criminal justice degree, since you can't become a cop until you are 21 in most US states.(Unarmed sheriffs deputy in jails being exceptions)

Sandor from London/Cambridge Since: Oct, 2009
#299: Aug 23rd 2012 at 2:56:05 PM

In my view, the police (and armed forces) should make a better job of identifying people within the ranks who are suited for "officer school".

One of the downsides from promotion from within is you get a lot more nepotism, and 'political officers' who spend more time setting themselves up for promotion then they do looking out for the best for their team, or unit.

"When you cut your finger, I do not bleed." Response of a man who lived on the outskirts of a concentration camp.
Sandor from London/Cambridge Since: Oct, 2009
#300: Aug 23rd 2012 at 3:19:41 PM

You are thinking in too direct terms for education here Barkey.

The nuts and bolts skills are of little to no worth. They'll teach you everything about doing the job itself during training and on the job itself. In this regard criminology degrees and such can actually be a harm because they teach a theoretical approach not a practical approach, and give trainees an over inflated sense of their own skill.

What education can teach you is approaches. I got pretty much the best posting possible out of my class, and I credit this to the fact that getting a joint degree in philosophy gave me a very strong analytic and logical approach, which obviously has huge benefits to investigation and such. It gave me a foot up that no amount of experience can teach.

Now you obviously get people who despite the lack of formal education posses, but it's much harder to teach an officer these skills then it is to get people with these skills and turn them into decent officers. Especially when the idea becomes ingrained in the long termers of 'who are they to tell me how to do my job more effectively'.

"When you cut your finger, I do not bleed." Response of a man who lived on the outskirts of a concentration camp.

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