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Ok it was mentioned there is not a thread for Law Enforcement Officers (LEO for short)and other similar jobs for discussion.

This is for discussing the actual jobs, ranks, training, culture, relations to military bodies that exist, and any other variety of topics that can arise pertaining to the World of Policing.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#2826: Dec 22nd 2014 at 9:30:53 AM

But on the other hand, NYPD...so my sympathy can only go so far. That said I think the guy should've picked actually guilty targets(which ain't too hard via social media) instead of two officers chilling in a car minding their own business. This dude ruined any message he tried to send here and if these guys were just actual honest police officers and not corrupt cops than I really feel bad for their families.

No, his message came across fine. He didn't ruin the message because the message was already horrible to begin with. "They take one of ours, we take two of theirs" is pretty unambiguous. This wasn't about a moral victory, it was about retribution.

That his actions paint his message in a murderous, thuggish light does not taint the message, because the message itself is that of a murderous thug. This was an act of mindless vengeance, not justice.

edited 22nd Dec '14 9:33:19 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#2827: Dec 22nd 2014 at 9:33:10 AM

Well, "justice" is arguably just the "vengeance" of the State, so...

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#2828: Dec 22nd 2014 at 10:13:07 AM

Yes, in the sense of actually no not at all. Per Oxford's dictionary, Justice is defined as "Just behavior or treatment", which is distinct from Vengeance, defined as "punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong." Vengeance of the State might be better defined as "War".

For what it's worth, Merriam-Webster also disagrees with you, defining Justice as "the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals". A street execution of two strangers does not fall into this category by any generous stretch.

And I think some folks need to realize that cops are always going to be judged as a group, because they are considered a single profession, just as all military personnel get judged when someone in uniform is sexually assaulted or a civilian is killed needlessly, police officers will all be judged as a group if some of their number are suspected of using inappropriate force or trying to pervert the justice system to cover their own asses.

edited 22nd Dec '14 10:13:27 AM by AFP

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#2829: Dec 22nd 2014 at 10:18:04 AM

The vengeance that the State takes against those who wrong it is called, by the State, Justice, with all the "fairness" and "impartiality" and "balance" that implies. That doesn't mean that the state's "Justice" is actually "just". It just means that they want us to think of it that way.

This point is not entirely irrelevant to the discussion, since we're talking about the Criminal Justice System, and all the blatant injustice it doles out left and right. Furthermore, pay attention to just how "just" and "restrained" the system is when one of its members is hurt.

When those hurt aren't the State or aren't important to it, it can afford to conspicuously take its time and be gentle and magnanimous and keep you on the Green Mile for decades. It's showing off that it wasn't hurt.

Vengeance, in the sense of "the wronged taking justice into their own hands", can be, in fact, just. "Justice", in the sense of "the State taking vengeance out of the wronged's hands", can, in fact, be unjust.

edited 22nd Dec '14 10:22:08 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#2830: Dec 22nd 2014 at 10:49:17 AM

Stop using a semantic argument to distract from the issue.

The definition of justice as I used it was clearly meant to imply a fair and just act. Your personal opinion of what the word's definition should be is irrelevant to the discussion.

edited 22nd Dec '14 10:49:53 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#2831: Dec 22nd 2014 at 10:55:04 AM

Killing random police officers as revenge for other police officers killing innocent people isn't something that would be considered just under any definition of justice.

For the record, I don't even think it would be just to assassinate those officers- But it certainly isn't just to kill random people.

edited 22nd Dec '14 10:56:15 AM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#2832: Dec 22nd 2014 at 11:34:22 AM

Anyways, we all know that the true meaning of Justice is when I am allowed to take my rightful place on the Throne of the Known Galaxy.

... Why are you all looking at me like that?

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#2833: Dec 22nd 2014 at 11:34:34 AM

[up][up]*shrug* That we agree on.

[up][up][up]Please forgive me. The genealogy of morals is indeed not the issue here. I got distracted. But don't dismiss "semantics" as such; they are very important.

[up]

edited 22nd Dec '14 11:35:16 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#2834: Dec 22nd 2014 at 7:14:16 PM

Reverend Sharpton and the parents of both shooting victims have said in the news that protestors should make a point peacefully and not by the use of force since it's making them look bad.

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#2835: Dec 23rd 2014 at 5:23:51 AM

tldr;

Everyone in New York is making an ass out of themselves. The Fraternal Order of Police, the NYPD, the protestors, and especially that jackass mayor of theirs for not containing and dispersing this shit earlier. Not to mention that he all but condoned the protesting and demonized his own police force in the process. He should have taken steps to contain the protesting and not let it get out of hand the way it has.

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#2836: Dec 23rd 2014 at 5:44:15 AM

You can't put tldr unless you have a wall of text to go above it.

hashtagsarestupid
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#2837: Dec 23rd 2014 at 6:05:17 AM

[up][up] Pretty much.

Sidenote: Nice to see ya again Barkey!

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#2838: Dec 23rd 2014 at 6:10:32 AM

[up][up][up] People have the right to protest and well with the history of the NYPD its very much justified.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#2839: Dec 23rd 2014 at 6:11:08 AM

NYPD logic. Think the mayor has an agenda here? Scores to settle?

Barkey, welcome back. Your absence was conspicuous. Any non-classified tales you can tell?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#2840: Dec 23rd 2014 at 8:21:00 AM

Sigh. One of my friends on Facebook is an LEO from a major Texas city. He is taking a hardline stance against everyone protesting against police abuse of power/inappropriate use of force, and it's getting rather tiresome having him try to hitch my wagon to the guy who murdered the two officers in New York.

I'm in the Air Force. A better argument could be made tying me to people who have killed far more people on any given day than any crazy guy or power-mad police officer with a gun, so at this point I'm just writing it off as him taking things to personally and skimming past for the most part.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#2841: Dec 23rd 2014 at 1:39:05 PM

Holy shit a wild Barkey appears. Good hear from you again.

I have just been watching with vague interest.

Who watches the watchmen?
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#2842: Dec 23rd 2014 at 11:16:19 PM

One of my family over for Chirstmas is an ex-cop and ex-detective who worked in Internal Affairs for three years, so he has tons of war stories to tell.

But one thing that struck me is what he said about Alamaba. He said that he once went to a training meeting in Alabama, and after talking to the police there, he was so scared that when the meeting was over, he drove straight back to Georgia and kissed the ground, and he's too scared to ever return to Alabama again.

Some of the police told him that they specifically look for people in nice cars with out of state license plates to arrest and steal their cars. They can legally arrest you for pretty much anything, seize your car, and hold you in jail for up to six months without charging you of a crime. Meanwhile, while you're sitting in jail, the car is towed, then impounded for storage fees, then the title passes to the state and there's nothing you can do about it.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#2843: Dec 23rd 2014 at 11:26:44 PM

Eh, the mayor's bs about having to "train his son" just gets on my nerves because I was taught exactly the same things without the "because you're black" bit, along with the rest of my family. Always heard it from uncles who were police officers. Do what cooperate, be respectful, ect. If the guy selling cigarettes had cooperated he'd still be alive, Ditto the guy from Ferguson.

edited 23rd Dec '14 11:27:22 PM by joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
SilasW A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#2844: Dec 23rd 2014 at 11:44:02 PM

Well the guy selling cigrettes wasn't actually selling cigarettes, so it's kinda hard for him to cooperate when he wasn't doing anything illegal.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#2845: Dec 24th 2014 at 1:53:18 AM

Some of the police told him that they specifically look for people in nice cars with out of state license plates to arrest and steal their cars. They can legally arrest you for pretty much anything, seize your car, and hold you in jail for up to six months without charging you of a crime. Meanwhile, while you're sitting in jail, the car is towed, then impounded for storage fees, then the title passes to the state and there's nothing you can do about it.

HOLY SHIT.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#2846: Dec 24th 2014 at 8:11:39 AM

That makes no sense. Almost all 50 states require charges to be brought withing 72 hours or you have to let them go. California is 48 hours.

Cops can arrest you for anything true, but it's the prosecutor who actually presses the charges and if they don't do that, you're free.

Now prosecutors can alter charges, drop charges, or add charges based on what the evidence is, but they're not even allowed to tell you what they are charging you with without council, unless you wave council.

So if they're holding people for up to six months? I would really like to know what jurisdiction that is and why the feds aren't all over that because that's breaking federal law.

Now once you are charged, there can be six months before you're arraigned, that makes sense. But just holding people like that? I'm skeptical.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#2847: Dec 24th 2014 at 12:13:55 PM

Another shooting in Berkeley, Missouri a few hours ago.

18-year old shot by officer. Minor thing is that he did not have his body cam. Mayor explains that they're in the process of training most officers with them.

rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#2848: Dec 24th 2014 at 1:01:27 PM

The guy in question

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#2849: Dec 24th 2014 at 1:12:17 PM

Oh boy now it just gets so much worse....

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#2850: Dec 24th 2014 at 1:52:27 PM

Cops are claiming he had a gun and took aim at the officers as well, though the video released isn't that clear.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/24/justice/missouri-officer-involved-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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