Invader Zim

I'm slightly bemused you'd worry people would find your opinion offensive when it basically boils down to "well it could have been worse!" Sure, that can be annoying — if it comes from someone who is either trying to downplay their own malfeasance, and/or trying to tell you that you're not allowed to be upset over something because your problems aren't THAT bad. You aren't either, so don't sweat it.

That said I don't know that I agree with you, because it seems you're basing your conclusion on a worst-case scenario. If Nick kicked Jhonen off the show, most people would probably regard all the episodes that came after simply non-canon, much like Gargoyles fans did with the Goliath Chronicles and the departure of Greg Weisman. TGC pretty much was that worst case scenario and I was furious over what it did to canon, but it didn't make my enjoyment of the original Gargoyles any less. But why assume the worst case scenario is the most likely one? Much of the Executive Meddling that I saw on Zim resulted in changes that were... odd, but not necessarily detrimental. Like the ending of Game Slave 2 and Iggins. Nick might have ordered some stupid things, but I don't know that that would have KILLED it, for so long as the staff was genuinely trying to put out a decent product regardless. I don't say it couldn't have worked out badly, only that we don't have certainty.

Which is the crux of the issue, for me. It's a risk. Letting a show continue always carries with it a risk of crashing and burning. Even if we agree for the sake of argument that the worst-case potential outcome of continuation was worse than what we got instead, would the existence of said risk have made it not worth the trying? I think the fact that it's all a moot point now puts the whole thing in a different light, but the question "should the show have been canceled?" isn't in the same place as "is it possible, or even likely, that the show would have gone on to suck it if it had?" The idea that we might be better off with the outcome we did get is sort of comforting, but it doesn't do it for me because it just smacks too much of... the grapes probably being sour anyway. Maybe it takes out some of the sting from the disappointment, but on some level you know you're just rationalizing it to yourself. Personally, I would have preferred to give it a chance.

edited 1st Aug '10 7:46:28 AM by Tyoria

^ Me too. I think the show should have an actual ending, the way Avatar The Last Airbender did, not just to keep running, like Spongebob.

Confession time: I don't get IZ. I just don't get it.

I mean, sure, it's funny here and there, and sure, it was wild of Nickelodeon to have hired that Vasquez fellow, of all people, to do a kid-friendly show for them. But I will forever remain perplexed as to why Invader Zim is as big a deal as it's become. To me, though I won't be so cold as to call it bad, it doesn't stand out at all. It's got its moments, but the fandom leaves me scratching my head.

^ Two Words: Black Humor

I'm kinda glad too. Although I would have LOVED to have seen Gir's Big Day and 10 Minutes of Doom as well as the season finale. *is a huge Gir fan*

I'm just glad it went out on top. Had it gone on without Vasquez, it's likely that Gir would have been flanderised horribly. Which would be a tragedy. I loved him as an adorably advanced robot.

Poor GIR already suffers from The Pikachu Effect. Imagine the massive amount of Flanderization that would happen to him if the show continued...

^Tyoria, I understand that people might not agree with my hypothesis about Zim eventually falling ill to executive meddling, but I'm just basing my opinions on what happened to other Nick shows. Nick pretty much ruined Spongebob and The Fairly Odd Parents, both which had come out around the same time Zim did, and toned them down so much they don't even resemble their original creations. Jhonen wouldn't have taken compromises like this, but if Zim really had become popular enough, I'm fairly certain Nick would have continued the series without him (Hell, Stephen Hillenburg left and Spongebob still running). Original fans of the show still would have hated the new episodes and considered them non-canon, but the "newer Zim" would still remain on TV and advertised the Invader Zim. And then it'd get canceled anyway.

And I agree with the rest of you too. If Zim had continued, you be pretty sure GIR, Gaz, Dib and Zim wouldn't have been the same.

I understand that you're basing your opinion on the fates of other shows at Nickelodeon. What I was saying though, is even if the Worst Case Scenario is also the most likely scenario, that's what we call a risk factor. Weighted against itself, it's easier to make the claim it wasn't worth it, but those weren't the stakes we were looking at for the original cancellation. Potential for the show to go to hell versus the potential for the show to go to awesometown and back — you really think, looking at those options, the best choice is to say "hmm, since the odds are against it, we should cancel it just to be safe?"

To me that just sounds silly.

edited 5th Aug '10 1:33:54 PM by Tyoria

Have y'all read Vazquez's Twitter? He muses about how an Nickoleadean-made Invader Zim (live action, of course) would be.

^^^ OMG did you make that?!

Seriously, GIR in his puppy suit IS The Pikachu Effect. In the original series, he was 70% of the time not even wearing it. Now when people think of Invader Zim, all they think about is "That cute green puppy that likes tacos or something." sic

I agree about the fate of the show if it would of continued. GIR would have probably hogged the spotlight, due to his huge popularity. The entire show would most likely be hugely dumbed down, and most, if not, all of the violence would have been removed.

Why do fangirls hate Dib sop much? I'm a Fangirl, and I think Zim is cute and all, but, I don't think Dib is annoying at all (his classmates, however, are). Dib has his Funny moments. ( IE: " I was just going to call Zim names in Alien languages, but your plan works too.) Mostly, by Lampshading the stupidness of things.

edited 6th Aug '10 5:35:06 PM by shadowgirl_13_chaos

Dib is the best character on the show. He is better than both the balogna and the salami combined.

The Invader Zim fanbase just seems to be at least 75% Fan Dumb. Probably due to falling in the middle of The Law of Fan Jackassery. Either that or a really loud Vocal Minority. (whew, enough tropes for ya?)

Probably another reason that cancellation wasn't so bad. Pandering to the Base could have gotten real bad.

Oh no, the hatred towards Dib wasn't a minority thing. He had a real PR problem that went to the top even at Nick◊.

Personally I think the dislike for him might have had something to do with the show's general misanthropy. It didn't encourage a lot of sympathy for the people at risk of being conquered outside of Dib, and by himself he doesn't make all that convincing a case for their salvation — especially when he's effectively as much an outsider as Zim. Humans aren't shown to be evil, exactly, but they're stupid, slovenly and utterly deserving of contempt. (The Irkens are JUST AS BAD, in ADDITION to being literally evil, but this aspect isn't focused on as much. Unfortunately.) The inclination is to see things through Zim's misanthropic perspective and Dib's opposition paints him as more an obstacle to be overcome than a challenge to those base assumptions. He gets in the way of cheering at Zim for destroying all that we hate about humanity by proxy, therefore he is resented.

Since when was Dib actually an effective obstacle towards anything Zim does? Zim defeats himself, Dib is just comic relief.

He does thwart Zim in "Future Dib" and "Battle of the Planets". Also "Room with a Moose", although the plans in question were of the personal rather than world-threatening variety. Ditto "Dibship Rising". Throw in episodes where assistance is allowed from other characters and Dib comes out on top in "NanoZim" and "Bad, Bad Rubber Piggy." ("Bloaty's Pizza Hog" is a bit of a stretch for even me.) Even in episodes where NOBODY wins, Dib making Zim a loser as well would surely count as being "an obstacle," yes? So, in that vein, "Bolognius Maximus".

I think Zim mostly defeats himself. Hell, I wrote most of the character page where that's in his description. But Dib does prove to be a thorn in his side.

edit: stupid Wiki Words...

edited 7th Aug '10 10:41:31 PM by Tyoria

I for one love Dib, especially in fics. I think what a lot of people miss, is when you skew dark or serious in your fic, Zim is no longer the good guy. He's funny taken lightly, because you know he won't win. But when you make him serious, he becomes a Complete Monster.

Wow, that's a lot of feedback.

Yeah, Dib's hatred is usually Fan Dumb. I alway's liked Dib, but I also liked Zim too. Their both have interesting character traits.

Um... shadowgirl? The Pikachu Effect directs to Third-Option Adaptation, which has absolutely nothing to do with Invader Zim. Are you sure you're thinking of the right trope?

Sorry, I've been here for only a year...

Isn't the pikachu effect when a character becomes the poster boy for a show, even if they were barly in it or had nothing much to do with the plot? Like GIR in his puppy Suit? ( which he rarely wore...)

^You're probably thinking of Spotlight-Stealing Squad.

I wonder what would have happened if they started pandering to the ZADR fangirls.

The apocalypse, probably.

I think out of all the Canceled episodes of Zim, the ones I was most looking forward to were "The Trial", "10 Minutes To Doom", "Invader Poonchy", "It Feeds On Noodles", and "NUBS OF DOOM". Good God, NOD, it was even recorded it just need to be animated! It's the entire reason why Zim even has Mini Moose on his team!

Isn't the pikachu effect when a character becomes the poster boy for a show, even if they were barly in it or had nothing much to do with the plot? Like GIR in his puppy Suit? ( which he rarely wore...)

Wolverine Publicity

^ whops, that's what I was thinking of. Sorry. ( Sadly, I actually knew what Wolverine Publicity was.... I'm such a pitiful Troper....)