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vifetoile Since: Jan, 2001
#276: Oct 18th 2010 at 10:29:32 PM

I read children's books for pretty shallow reasons - that many of my favorite books are children's books, and so I feel that I'll like children's literature pretty well on the whole. And while this is true to an extent, this summer I learned firsthand of the shortcomings of children's literature, especially that which has received the Newbery Medal.

But on thinking about it, I like that children's (and YA) literature is straightforward: about telling a good story, telling it clearly and simply, not bogging itself down with exposition or angst, and with the freedom to have a sense of humor about itself. Character development is typically key in more "academic" kid's lit (though the really good stuff doesn't feel academic at all). The best kid's lit doesn't talk down to its audience, or use "it's for kids!" as an excuse to use cheap author-escapes.

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#277: Oct 20th 2010 at 7:04:27 AM

this summer I learned firsthand of the shortcomings of children's literature, especially that which has received the Newbery Medal.

What's wrong with Newbery books? I'm not saying I disagree necessarily; heck, when I was a kid, any award on the front of the book meant "boring". When I got older, it meant "pretentious". Seriously, seeing a gold medal on the cover of a book actually scared me away from wanting to read it.

My general view has been, and still is, that any thing, not just books, that receives a lot of awards, is probably boring, melodramatic or pretentious, and/or depressing.

What's your view on the Newbery Medal?

But on thinking about it, I like that children's (and YA) literature is straightforward: about telling a good story, telling it clearly and simply, not bogging itself down with exposition or angst, and with the freedom to have a sense of humor about itself.

Yes to all of these! Of course, there's also kid lit that wastes time with excessive description, believe me. But kid novels do tend to be more straightforward, not waste time, while still finding time to have good characterization, and not being afraid to have appropriate humor. I say appropriate humor, because when things are just plain silly, that can get in the way of taking the story seriously.

The best kid's lit doesn't talk down to its audience, or use "it's for kids!" as an excuse to use cheap author-escapes.

Yup. If only cartoons could be as well written. They use cheap storytelling tricks all the time. In fact, the first tropes I came to dislike were those used frequently in cartoons. You want intelligent storytelling, you get it from a book.

edited 20th Oct '10 7:06:48 AM by BonsaiForest

FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#278: Oct 20th 2010 at 1:12:14 PM

I still don't see why good character development and good plot need to be mutually exclusive.

Recently a bunch of my friends fell in love with a Newbery honoree called Savvy. I gave it a read and annoyed to all hell by most of it, mostly for the utter transparency of the plot and a really unsettling Esoteric Happy Ending. But the concept was great, and I think I'll probably end up reading the sequel in the hopes that it's not so "Look-How-Coming-Of-Age-I-Am."

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
vifetoile Since: Jan, 2001
#279: Oct 20th 2010 at 4:59:28 PM

^^ Well, not so much a grudge against the Newbery itself - more that I realized that the Newbery is not the infallible judge of great kid's lit that I thought it was. I discovered some great stuff this summer that won the Newbery tag; Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, just for starters. But then I also read Jacob Have I Loved, which I despised. Even more surprisingly, it's by the woman who wrote Bridge To Terabithia, which is superb.

It's like how when I was little I thought that the Oscars were infallible, last-word-ever judges of cinematic greatness, and now I know that the Oscars are subject to the whims of the time, and, well, they have their prejudices too.

It was interesting to look at the earliest books I could find - like The Twenty-One Balloons - and seeing how that, a lighthearted, silly sort of science-fiction story with a moral at its center of how different cultures can all live in harmony if we live in the South Pacific and eat good food - lines up against heavier work which appears determined to teach children the pain of life, while leaving some grains of hope in their little psyches.

I actually ended up coining a phrase, "Newbery Nihilism:" basically, Oscar Bait for kid's lit. The super academic stuff that tends to attract awards for some incomprehensible reason. It's got no coherent plot, usually set in the US, the main character is poor and lives in some dead-end village in the middle of nowhere, the character angsts about their life a lot, and nothing happens except that life gets worse. Like the heroine sets her pregnant mother on fire. (Out of the Dust, to name one.)

Now, even Newbery Nihilism can be done well. The Yearling and A Day No Pigs Would Die can both fit into that category, and I like them both. Heck, I ended up making a table of all the trends that showed up consistently in Newbery-winning books (I read about 14 new Newberies over the summer). I had too much time on my hands. But even books with "yes" in every single box in the table can be really, really good.

TL;DR: I do still like and respect the Newbery, for the most part, but I've learned that it is not an infallible benchmark of quality. But still worth discussion.

WeirdRaptor from Illinois, U.S.A. Since: Jan, 2010
#280: Oct 20th 2010 at 5:01:41 PM

Well, I'm reading the original Wizard of Oz right now.

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf
FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#281: Oct 20th 2010 at 5:31:09 PM

I think the thing that makes Bridge To Terebithia really succeed—and what makes it really well-thought-of despite the fact that it tears your heart to itty bitty pieces—is the fact that it's actually identifiable. The ending is sad, but it's not, as you said, nihilistic. Who didn't play pretend with their friends? Who didn't occassionaly break the rules just to prove they could? And even if you personally never had an awkward crush on a teacher, you probably knew someone who did. The tragic ending actually kinda reminds you how valuable your friends are, so you're not just moping over another fictional character's death.

Another Newbery winner that has that same sort of quality is The Egypt Game. Then again, that one's nowhere near as tragic.

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#282: Oct 20th 2010 at 7:48:09 PM

I still don't see why good character development and good plot need to be mutually exclusive.

I don't think they have to, and in fact, I like good character development. I just think that books - heck, stories in general, be the movies or what-have-you - would be better if they balanced character development and plot.

For example, have characters reveal aspects of their personality during important plot twists, or in ways that cause them. Or have a good balance between the two, so that there's character stuff inbetween plot elements, so you don't get bored. Basically, it's about pacing.

Heck, characterization can be shown during events that are genuinely interesting and fun to read about. Maxie Rosie And Earl Partners In Grime is an example of book that's pretty much only about character, with barely any plot, and still manages to be very entertaining.

I guess it's all in how the story is told. I don't care for stories that are slow. It's one thing to have moments designed to make us identify with a character, and indeed, such moments can be done very well. It's another to slow the story down to the point where it's boring, in an attempt to teach us something about the character. That's when I get fed up.

I actually ended up coining a phrase, "Newbery Nihilism:" basically, Oscar Bait for kid's lit. The super academic stuff that tends to attract awards for some incomprehensible reason. It's got no coherent plot, usually set in the US, the main character is poor and lives in some dead-end village in the middle of nowhere, the character angsts about their life a lot, and nothing happens except that life gets worse.

How very true. Heck, that could be a trope! I'd love to see it added to this site. As a kid, I certainly noticed those shiny medals on the covers of books that did not look interesting to me at all, and you've pinpointed exactly why. Impossible to relate to.

I think the thing that makes Bridge To Terebithia really succeed—and what makes it really well-thought-of despite the fact that it tears your heart to itty bitty pieces—is the fact that it's actually identifiable.

I didn't read Bridge To Terabithia, but did watch the movie, which I really liked and did relate to. And yes, I cried both times I watched it. It's so much more sad on a personal level when you relate to the characters and their situation.

FeoTakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#283: Oct 20th 2010 at 11:24:29 PM

I guess I should link this . . .

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
Alan23 Alan23 from Australia Since: Oct, 2010
Alan23
#284: Oct 21st 2010 at 4:59:18 AM

I guess I am biased here, since I've actually published six short novels for children (only in a small way, NOT that I'm mega-famous), but I can't see how the intended audience makes any difference to whether a book is enjoyable or not. My own method when choosing a book is to check out the blurb, though of course if it's by an author I've enjoyed previously I'm more likely to give it a chance. If the book happens to be one that's obviously intended for children, I don't really care.

I will admit though, that I might be open to a charge of not reading them "properly" in the sense that I tend not to always go along with the way the author positions me. For example, when I read "Little Lord Fauntleroy" I kept hoping the title character would meet a violent and sticky end, rather than wishing I could be as good and sweet as him, which I think is what the author originally intended. I also try and make allowances for omissions and cliches, reminding myself that the author has to deliberately leave things like sexuality, mortgages, drugs, and other kinds of gritty reality out of the doings since they wouldn't suit her/his audience and purpose.

And yeah, I've really enjoyed many of the kids books I've read.

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#285: Oct 21st 2010 at 7:50:26 AM

Feo, I know about Death by Newbery Medal, but it seems like Newbery Nihilism could be a different, though related, trope. It's about a Crapsack World that just doesn't get better.

For example, when I read "Little Lord Fauntleroy" I kept hoping the title character would meet a violent and sticky end, rather than wishing I could be as good and sweet as him, which I think is what the author originally intended.

Heh, Misaimed Fandom. Too funny. I haven't really experienced that yet with a book, that I could recall.

FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#286: Oct 21st 2010 at 3:44:18 PM

I like a little slowness in my books myself, though, so agree to disagree and all that.

@Alan: What are your books? Famous or no, I wouldn't mind checking out what a fellow Troper has to write.

@Thread: I think everyone wants to punch Little Lord Fauntleroy. In part because he's named "Fauntleroy."

edited 21st Oct '10 3:50:01 PM by FreezairForALimitedTime

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
Jumpingzombie Since: Jan, 2001
#287: Oct 21st 2010 at 10:40:06 PM

A bit of attention whoring, but I finally got around to making a page for ''My Father's Dragon, if anyone else is interested in editing it. :P

The reason I still read kid's and YA books is pretty simple: I just like many of the stories. They can be complicated, they can grow with the reader, but they aren't always weighed down by a lot of stuff that adult novels are. I read and like plenty of adult novels that would be considered more "mature" where they contain more sex, violence, depression, etc. but I like the fact that children's stories aren't always preoccupied with those things. Maybe it's a sort of, for lack of a better word, "innocence" about them. Romance in a kid's novel isn't usually going to be an annoyingly large part of it. It's nice just to find a interesting story with engaging characters that gets told rather than taking thirty pages out of the narrative to tell me that the Hero and Main Female Heroin/Love Interest just shagged in a closet and are now giving off weirdness vibes to each other. Just get on with it!

As for books that win awards: eh, it's hit and miss. Some are truly very good and some are obviously sappy Coming of Age stories geared toward winning. I find it funny the amount of coming of age books that include at least one major person in the protagonist's life dying. I don't recall that much carnage in my growing up.

FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#288: Oct 22nd 2010 at 12:10:21 AM

I've been remarking to people that since none of my pets, relatives, or friends either died or became horribly maimed while I was between the ages of 12-15, I clearly never grew up properly. :P When you think about it, killing off a beloved person of the protag's for the required Coming-Of-Age drama is kind of selfish—"You horrible brat, look what you did! This person had to die just so that YOU could grow up, you loser!"

I liked the way Shiloh did it. The kid struggles, but he ends up with a happy ending and he gets to keep his dog. Or Silent To The Bone—the baby sister gets better!

EDIT: Wow, no page on Silent To The Bone yet? TV Tropes, I am disappoint! Yet another thing for me to pagify, if it hadn't been so LONG since I read it last...

edited 22nd Oct '10 12:11:33 AM by FreezairForALimitedTime

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
LanceManley I'm watching you. ಠ_ಠ from Ontario, Canada Since: Sep, 2010
I'm watching you. ಠ_ಠ
#289: Oct 22nd 2010 at 12:25:56 AM

Arguably The Hobbit is a kid's book, yet I find it an awesome read.

edited 22nd Oct '10 12:26:09 AM by LanceManley

Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil. ~ C. S. Lewis
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#290: Oct 22nd 2010 at 8:42:16 AM

They can be complicated, they can grow with the reader, but they aren't always weighed down by a lot of stuff that adult novels are. I read and like plenty of adult novels that would be considered more "mature" where they contain more sex, violence, depression, etc. but I like the fact that children's stories aren't always preoccupied with those things. Maybe it's a sort of, for lack of a better word, "innocence" about them. Romance in a kid's novel isn't usually going to be an annoyingly large part of it. It's nice just to find a interesting story with engaging characters that gets told rather than taking thirty pages out of the narrative to tell me that the Hero and Main Female Heroin/Love Interest just shagged in a closet and are now giving off weirdness vibes to each other. Just get on with it!

Yes, very true. Some might argue that those 30 pages are "character development" (at least one character is being developed over the course of the next 9 months), but yes, the innocence is definitely preferable to stuff like that.

My grandmother said many years back that R L Stine's Superstitious "certainly is trying to be for adults! It's got the cursing in it!" I briefly read through parts of it (I was reading both Goosebumps and Fear Street at the time), and yup, there's the obligatory swearing. Didn't come across the obligatory "romance" during my skim through, but didn't skim through that much.

I did go through my "I want to see 'mature' stuff" phase of my life at one point in my teens, but got over it, and now I just think that such content only works if it really fits in the context of the story.

Kid books don't have that problem. Such content is not allowed, though some do contain mild swearing (according to my little brother, Shiloh does contain harsher-than-usual swearing). And when they do have violence, it's always in service to the story, and not for its own sake. They can't get away with violence for violence's sake, so they don't try, and that's quite refreshing.

edited 22nd Oct '10 9:50:30 AM by BonsaiForest

Jumpingzombie Since: Jan, 2001
#291: Oct 22nd 2010 at 8:47:41 AM

^^^Shiloh will always and forever amaze me how kind the author is to her characters. All three books she had a chance not only kill off the dog, but also a couple of other characters. Yet, she doesn't and is still able to put in quite a bit of character development for the main character.

EDIT:

now I just think that such content only works if it really fits in the context of the story.
Agreed. I don't even mind if it's mentioned that two people have something going on and slept together, but many times a story that doesn't need a ton of romance has a bunch of details dumped on about it. If it's solely about a relationship, then I can forgive it. As you can see, I have a few hang ups about people pumping stories full of Romantic Plot Tumors.

Swearing in kid's books is probably the easiest to get away with just because you can put in fairly mild stuff. In Shiloh I can't really remember that much swearing, but it's been awhile since I read those books. Sex and romance in children's books is funny to me because how fast people will jump on the stories for including it. Like Bridge To Terabithia, which apparently gets banned a lot because the main character has a unrequited crush on his teacher. That just sort of baffles me.

edited 22nd Oct '10 9:04:39 AM by Jumpingzombie

FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#292: Oct 22nd 2010 at 9:36:27 PM

And heaven forbid you talk about a female character of a certain age having a period! Especially a first one! tongue

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
Jace Atypical masculinity. from the Great White North Since: Oct, 2010
Atypical masculinity.
#293: Oct 23rd 2010 at 8:58:52 AM

^ I've read YA books that mention that. I don't see why a children's book should, though.

Biophilic bookworm by day, gentleman adventurer by night.
Jumpingzombie Since: Jan, 2001
#294: Oct 23rd 2010 at 9:32:27 AM

^^Part of the reason I liked Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret :P That was the first book I remember anyone going on about getting a period.

edited 23rd Oct '10 9:33:34 AM by Jumpingzombie

Jace Atypical masculinity. from the Great White North Since: Oct, 2010
Atypical masculinity.
#295: Oct 23rd 2010 at 11:32:08 AM

Tamora Pierce's YA books also mention growing up and puberty.

Biophilic bookworm by day, gentleman adventurer by night.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#296: Oct 24th 2010 at 5:41:23 AM

I read Louis Sachar's "Holes" a long time ago in middle school. I re-read it maybe two years ago.

Still was really good IMO.

Alan23 Alan23 from Australia Since: Oct, 2010
Alan23
#297: Oct 24th 2010 at 6:35:49 AM

Freezair FALT thanks for the interest. My books were published under the name "Dan Ashlin", and are used in the Australian Education system, rather than being for general sale - see, I'm not really as famous as all that, hee hee. Not sure if I should name all the titles here, I think they might call it spam, but if you contact the Australian branch of Wylie and search for Dan Ashlin, (or simply Google "Dan Ashlin" and "Heros Nomad") that should tell you what's still available. -

Or email me at alansmith23(takethisbitout)@ihug.com.au and I can give you more detail.

sabrina_diamond iSanity! from Australia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
#298: Oct 24th 2010 at 8:56:17 PM

I've read Artemis Fowl and Harry Potter and I'm STILL a fan of Alex Shearer's works and Roald Dahl

In an anime, I'll be the Tsundere Dark Magical Girl who likes purple MY own profile is actually HERE!
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#299: Oct 24th 2010 at 9:38:11 PM

If your books are used in the public education system, that's actually quite impressive. They're definitely reaching an audience that way! Are they used as reading books - i.e. read a chapter, then answer questions about the story? Or are they educational stories? Now I'm very curious. How'd you get schools interested in your books?

Alan23 Alan23 from Australia Since: Oct, 2010
Alan23
#300: Oct 25th 2010 at 4:49:54 AM

Bonsai Forest, the short answer is that I am sleeping with the company's Senior Educational Publisher...

But I probably should clarify that a bit, it wasn't quite as simple as that. Essentially, the company were producing the texts for the Queensland SOSE course, (basically a mix of Sociology, History and Geography for those in other countries), which included novels that were kind of tied in to the things the kids would be studying. My beloved decided to do the novels "in house", started writing it and got bogged down. Suddenly in desperation she remembered that the love of her life was a reasonable hand with a pen himself (I used to do a lot of fiction which ended up on the net in far off days) and called me in.

The resultant book turned out to be pretty acceptable (I hope), to the extent that the Management - not knowing I was only brought in due to my privileged status - commissioned more books from me, together with a series of poems and plays used in their English course.

The moral? Talent and ability and a true vision is all very well, but as far as getting published goes, they pale into insignificance beside contacts! Seriously, there a lot of writers with far more ability than me that *don't* get into print - it's all about the right place and the right time, which I'm sure is a trope somewhere on these pages!

The books are in fact studied, in much the same way as "proper" writers are. In fact, one of the biggest kicks I get is to see the text books asking the young victims to "compare the poems by Ashlin and Yeats. Which one has the best imagery?" etc. One class even used one of my books as a class project, making models of the hovercraft used in the books, drawing pictures of the characters and doing mock interviews with them, etc, which really made me feel great.

However, there's always something to bring one down to earth. I treasure one young angel's review of my first novel, when he was asked to state the ideal audience for the work

"This would be ideal for someone of 120 or older with nothing better to do" :)


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