Bill and Ted 3

I'll be honest, I don't understand where you're coming from. Yes, the world's changed, and not entirely for the better. The correct response to this is not to remove any reminders of the past because we've learned now that optimism is for suckers. There's still plenty of room for lighthearted comedy.

I never said there's no "room for lighthearted comedy".

I said there's no point in reviving a franchise that has been completely dead for the last twenty years if there's not going to be an "update" to fit in more styles and themes that are popular in the present day. (And if that should mean changing what made Bill & Ted what it is in the first place, then perhaps that means we should question whether or not we really want a third movie so much.)

edited 2nd Oct '13 10:18:19 PM by SeanMurrayI

You wouldn't happen to have seen the new Muppet movie, have you? I think it's pretty damning evidence that updating for the modern day and retaining the charm and appeal of the original are by no means mutually exclusive.

The storytelling style, the pacing, and the visual aesthetic will likely be updated, seeing as Ed Solomon and Chris Matheson have continued to make movies to this day with varying degrees of success and likely are aware that film-making as a medium has changed since 1991. But I don't think that needs to mean losing lightheartedness or idealism—and if you don't either, than what does the political climate have to do with anything?

edited 2nd Oct '13 10:22:09 PM by Wackd

But what are your thoughts on updating Bill & Ted for a more modern setting? How would/should it be done? Why MUST it be done, anyway?

edited 2nd Oct '13 10:28:16 PM by SeanMurrayI

I'll admit I could stand to see the titular two painted with less broad strokes, and given a narrative with a tighter focus. I think that's one of the best things to come out of the current filmmaking philosophy, really—"it's just a comedy" is no longer something critics will let excuse flimsy narrative and flat characters unless the film in question has a sharp satirical edge. The idea of taking the comic sensibilities of the first two films and finding nuance and meaning in them really appeals to me. And the delicate balancing act of making the characters more three-dimensional without undercutting their goofiness is something that should be entertaining to see attempted even if it fails.

Now, let's be frank—looking at Matheson and Soloman's resumes, it's entirely possible that I'm expecting too much. It's also possible that the two keep getting saddled with shit premises and Soloman's involvement with Men in Black and Now You See Me would be the rule rather than the exception in a fair and just universe. Either way, there's something in their sincerity and devotion to these characters that's making me root for them on this one.

I remember the 80s and 90s rather well. I was in the armed forces in my country in the time period straddling the end of the former decade and the start of the latter one, and even though I was under the risk, however slight it may seem now, of getting swatted by a Russian SS-18 Satan missile silo that was targeted on my local area, (because it was a target-rich environment, to say the least), life was better back then.

We knew who the enemy was, what their capabilities were, and more importantly they knew ours, and what we would do if they crossed the line to too great an extent.

None of that applies now.

Bringing back Bill and Ted into this environment makes as much sense to me as those folks over here who watch East Enders and vote on Simon Fucking Cowell's money grubbing television programmes. I.E not much sense at all.

Then I'm seeing it as a "future culture shock" story, like, I dunno... the first Austin Powers movie?

I continue to fail to see what Bill & Ted have to do with the political climate.

The political climate makes the film inappropriate in my view. There is no possibility of suspension of disbelief.

I'll be honest, I don't care how good things were in 89, the idea that a really good rock band would be enough to usher in world peace was never something plausible enough for that to apply. And even if it was, by 91 it was established that key members of this band were two extraterrestrials, two time travelers, and the personification of Death. The idea that this would work in a post 9/11 world is arguably the most plausible factor if only due to the continued existence of music.

edited 3rd Oct '13 12:37:40 AM by Wackd

I believe the plot of the film was discussed a few years ago, with Bill and Ted taking a look at the modern world and wondering why their foretold greatness seems to have not appeared.

I think the movie could easily work. Bill and Ted as 40-something men who suddenly realize they're working a 9-to-5, married to their princesses, who've filled out, and they wonder where the magic faded away. Of course, the answer is that some sinister conspiracy changed their past so that they never wrote their song... I mean, that's so much more plausible than The Dream just fading away because you had more important things to do, right? Depending on how they decide to play it, either we get more dimensional travel shenanigans where they foil the evil plot or Bill and Ted realize that the only one at fault for their dream dying was them and so we get a montage of them bringing the band back together, relearning their instruments and penning lyrics during their lunch breaks, and they wriote their breakthrough song and it's a smash hit that really does make people realize that the key is "to be excellent with one another". Hey, I'd watch either one.

It's not a matter of plausibility. As Tam pointed out, it's about Willing Suspension of Disbelief. It doesn't matter if the concept of two Southern Cali teens sparking world peace and universal harmony through rock music isn't plausible in the first place; the problem is that far fewer people in AD 2013 or '14 or whenever would simply accept the premise without questioning its now much more obvious dubiousness.

edited 3rd Oct '13 4:12:10 PM by SeanMurrayI

And you took a survey on this? You've seen that piece of wisdom floating around a lot? I mean, I don't doubt it's true for you, but I've seen no evidence that the majority of theatergoers would have more trouble accepting it, especially with superhero films and fantasy knockoffs being the order of the day.

I've only seen the first movie, but I gotta say a new Bill and Ted would be great. I don't see what's so implausible about the basic plot, either. Considering the various implausible plots we've had just in the last few years, one more won't make any difference.

Besides, it's kind of grandfathered in, what with the other movies already being known and loved by lots of people.

Guys, I've got it: Tell the story of the time rebels from the Nintendo game.

Y'know, there were wars, terrorist attacks, environmental destruction, and economic problems in the eightieis and nineties, not to mention the rise of AIDS, the Satanic Panic, and a couple genocides.

If anything, nowadays is the best time for some optimism.

That's pretty much how I feel, yeah.

This world is getting more and more like that of a series of books I am currently reading starring a certain HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!!! if you follow?

"Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

I would change the ' the far future' bit to 'the present' - everything else quoted seems to be accurate to describe the current situation and point out that there seems to be no room for optimism.

You wish. Not to be mean, but that's something I'd expect armchair generals or a kid with AD to say. All times are bad. The Roman peace is such a rarity that we still celebrate it annually even though it technically wasn't even peacetime. But on the flip side, compared to the carnage of the last century - to say nothing of centuries before it - the present is cakewalk.

I don't share the cynicism regarding a sequel... but the biggest stumbling block is the music itself. This was why we never, ever hear the Wyld Stallyns album which ended all war everywhere forever (apart from KISS at the end of Bogus Journey, which was intentionally cheesy. They might as well have jammed to "We Built This City"). Because even at the time of release, rock n' roll was on its way out. I mean, it would be hilarious if the duo returned and tried to save the music industry with outdated glam rock, but I wouldn't be surprised if the trepidation about Bill & Ted 3 is rooted in the fact that music has changed.

I'll be honest, the idea of ever actually hearing the song is inherently appalling to me, because if such a thing was capable of existing we'd actually have world peace. No, better to keep it shrouded in mystery.

That said, I love the idea of Bill and Ted being responsible for some sort of rock-revival. Pile one more fantastical implausibility on, why not.

Most successful superhero and fantasy stories (and their remakes and reboots) of the last decade have aimed to emulate some form of realism and provide some reflection of the impact of the real world events that have shaped our modern culture, regardless of how many fantastic elements there are present elsewhere in the types of works that you're looking to emphasize. Off the top of my head, I've noticed this in the likes of The Dark Knight Saga, Amazing Spider-Man, Kick-Ass, Avatar, the upcoming Robo-Cop remake, and dozens more I could list off, if I wanted to spend all day making this point to you. Mind, no matter how much you want to keep brushing me off without ever giving me an answer with specific context related to the Bill & Ted subject which is at hand, the point of the importance of updating a franchise that has been dead for over 20 years to reflect more contemporary culture and attitudes remains entirely valid.

Heck, just open your ears and discover for yourself how much modern music has changed since both 80's metal and 90's alternative have long since fallen out of fashion. The fact that Bogus Journey had both the title characters and the movie soundtrack take more cues from the growing grunge/alternative culture than in the original movie when 80's metal/power rock were largely the norm is telling enough already. What is there to possibly take interest in a movie about a rock band in 2014 that never changed its sound from 1991 onward—apart from what would amount to a Comedic Sociopathy streak as we gawk at two morons who never grew up after the events of the last movie and failed to bring world peace and harmony because they fell into irrelevance and Spın̈al Tap levels of obscurity as the rest of the world moved on with the changing times?

Likewise, an 80's/90's franchise with the ultimate aim being UNIVERSAL PEACE AND HARMONY bundled in wisdom as trite as "be excellent to each other" cannot run with this schtick over two decades later in which the hope and optimism for world peace built up during the Glasnost period and the end of the Cold War (the real world events going on when the original movies were made) has taken a rapid decline. In a 2014 movie, Bill & Ted's #1 Commandment has turned into its own punchline, as two characters from 20 years ago certainly cannot repeat it or still believe in it today without looking anything but incredibly dumb & naive—and not in the fun way of the earlier movies, just plain stupid and unintelligent.

Honestly, in light of all this and more, if a new film doesn't get play up its franchise in a Deconstruction of some sort, then such a film has no hope. None. Zip. Nada. Diddly squat.

edited 4th Oct '13 2:03:31 PM by SeanMurrayI

I respect your point of view, but I disagree. Heck, I think that, properly played, this could hit Being There levels of the in-movie world not knowing how to deal with Bill and Ted making their music despite all of their detractors and succeeding to everyone's surprise. *shrug* You might not like the idea of them releasing the movie. Frankly, the movie might come out and flop entirely. But I disagree with you in that I think the movie could portray Bill and Ted as changing the world, do so sincerely, and get the movie audience behind them.

I did in fact mention earlier in the thread that I wanted more characterization and narrative complexity out of a potential third film. Which, to a degree I think, falls under the whole "realism" umbrella.

You keep repeating that modern audiences would have a problem with the series' optimism and yet you've offered absolutely no evidence beyond your own biases. Who have you spoken to about this? Have you conducted a poll of some kind? Who is this mystical audience that is so goddamn cynical that the very idea of optimism would completely remove their suspension of disbelief?

Updating the music might be a problem, yes, but hardly an insurmountable one. There's enough nostalgia for the cheesy rock of days gone by for goddamn Rock of Ages to still be touring and more than enough interest to sustain multiple reunion tours for a lot of the groups that no longer fit in with the modern cultural zeitgeist.

And with regards to optimism being outdated, I point you again to 2011's The Muppets, which dealt very well with reinvigorating The Muppet Show era aesthetic for a modern audience without ditching any of the ideals it was founded on and it achieved critical acclaim and the ability to kick-start a new film franchise.

Seriously, go watch it.