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firewriter Since: Dec, 2016
#33151: Jul 11th 2019 at 9:32:12 PM

Yeah, this could work if he didn't bundle other metaphors along the way.

bigking Since: Apr, 2011
#33152: Jul 11th 2019 at 9:44:29 PM

My main problem with his metaphors is that they stop being metaphors and become reality.

The men are represented by mindless zombies, it's a metaphor.

Ok, not sure I think that's a good metaphor but I see what your doing.

Oh wait, I mean all men are literally zombies now.

Wut...

Metalix Since: Apr, 2012
#33153: Jul 11th 2019 at 9:47:01 PM

Y'know, in a better written comic this lady would freaking HATE the Sisterhood. The fembots could've given her a way out of the life she's in if they were popular enough, but because Clio screwed them up so badly no one wants to risk using them.

Hexapodia Since: Jun, 2016
#33154: Jul 11th 2019 at 11:45:57 PM

Hermelin Graduate wrote: ... although Sinfest's never covered it (that I recall, at least) I imagine if prompted, Tats would have a lot to say about abortion.

I think Tats (or his ghostwriter) would be totally in favor of abortion for all pregnancies. Remember, all PIV sex is by definition "rape" in the extreme radfem world.

Gibson35 King Kitty from Hunting in the jungle for s'mores Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
King Kitty
#33155: Jul 12th 2019 at 12:06:44 AM

It was mentioned on piss world. You are correct; there doesn't seem to be any restrictions in their approach at all. It's more about complete and utter autonomy over their own bodies. However, Tatsuya never broached the topic and there is THIS comic:

https://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2008-06-09

Maybe his hesitancy to discuss this is his only reservation about radical feminism.

Hmmm...maybe I stand slightly corrected? There's this comic too, but this appears to be during the time that he could have been using them as a parody.

https://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2011-10-22

Mmm, nah, I think's he's pretty pro-abortion. It's probably not important to him. He probably believes that he shouldn't have a say in it and that it should be a woman only topic.

https://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2004-04-28

Edited by Gibson35 on Jul 12th 2019 at 12:19:01 PM

I just came to talk about how horrible Sinfest is.
Pfhorrest Since: Apr, 2011
#33156: Jul 12th 2019 at 1:16:43 AM

Nobody is pro-abortion, or anti-life. That's what the joke is in the second comic you linked: the real debate is anti-choice vs pro-choice, with both sides generally (literally speaking) pro-life and anti-abortion; the pro-choice side aiming to reduce abortions by reducing unwanted pregnancies, either by preventing pregnancy or preventing the circumstances that make them unwanted, rather than making abortion itself illegal. But the anti-choice side frames it as pro-life vs anti-life, which... is as ridiculous as that comic makes it sound. ("Have sex! Kill babies! Rock and roll!" said nobody in real life.)

This is formally similar to the debate about prostitution. (HEY TATS! Pay attention to this part!) People who advocate for prostitution to be legal aren't doing so because they want to see more people become prostitutes, just like people who advocate for abortion to be legal aren't doing so because they want there to be more abortions. Those advocating for legality of prostitution generally also want people to not have to go into prostitution, but they want to achieve that by removing the socioeconomic forces that put people into a position where they have to choose between selling their bodies and the harsh consequences of poverty; just like those advocating for legality of abortion generally also want people to not have to have abortions, but they want to achieve that by removing the occurrences of unwanted pregnancies that put would-be mothers in the position of having to choose between aborting their pregnancies or living with the harsh consequences of unready motherhood.

In both cases, the position that respects freedom, autonomy, and self-determination, the (literal) pro-choice side, says that given that somebody is in the position of having to make such a shitty decision, the decision should be theirs to make; but that doesn't negate that the real work to do is preventing people from being in the position of having to make such a shitty decision in the first place.

Edited by Pfhorrest on Jul 12th 2019 at 1:26:39 AM

Gibson35 King Kitty from Hunting in the jungle for s'mores Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
King Kitty
#33157: Jul 12th 2019 at 1:46:44 AM

I frame the position as pro-abortion mainly because the issue always seems to be about the woman's right to choose but not the man's right to choose if he doesn't want the child and still has to make child support payments.

Wouldn't it be more fair to say that it is pro-choice if men could choose not to have to make child support payments if the woman keeps the baby? Why should he be responsible for her decision? If she may have sovereign over her body, can he not have decision over his money? That's why I framed it as such.

Although I note that it is framed in an absolute, I state that pro-choice is self-serving when you don't allow the man the ability to choose to be involved financially or not. That's why I deem it to be "pro-abortion" in that case.

I feel that only when you give both parties the agency to choose can you truly call yourself pro-choice.

Edited by Gibson35 on Jul 12th 2019 at 1:58:04 AM

I just came to talk about how horrible Sinfest is.
hayate666 New England Devil Stork Conservationist Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
New England Devil Stork Conservationist
#33158: Jul 12th 2019 at 2:03:27 AM

Tats, baby. You can't do a comic about a character being ignored for her plight while she's not actually there.

He's going too far again. The Sunday comic where the prostitute was dissociating kind of worked, even if it wasn't entirely clear that was what Tats was going for.

But garnering sympathy because people don't care about her? She needs to be real for that to happen, Tats! Stop trying to be too clever for your own good and just focus on telling a simple, clear story that doesn't disappear up its own ass with ideas you're not smart enough for to use correctly!

[up][up] Well written point! I'm agreeing with this.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#33159: Jul 12th 2019 at 2:11:17 AM

Huh? She's a ghost now? I'm so confused. I feel like I missed a comic or two.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Gibson35 King Kitty from Hunting in the jungle for s'mores Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
King Kitty
#33160: Jul 12th 2019 at 3:07:51 AM

I think Tat is going for the disassociation angle (touched on it on previous page), but we probably won't know for sure until tomorrow.

Others are saying that it is representative of the public's tendency to ignore the problem of forced prostitution.

[up]4x And yes, excuse me for not saying so right away, Pfhorest. That was a well-written response.

Edited by Gibson35 on Jul 12th 2019 at 3:13:17 AM

I just came to talk about how horrible Sinfest is.
Garvalan Since: Nov, 2010
#33161: Jul 12th 2019 at 8:18:30 AM

So... we went from zombies to ghosts?

Well, at least it's a NEW idea. I hope.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#33162: Jul 12th 2019 at 9:40:54 AM

You know, I'll take the ghosts and leave the zombies, thanks.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Pfhorrest Since: Apr, 2011
#33163: Jul 12th 2019 at 9:59:04 AM

Thanks Hayate and Gibson, glad you liked the analogy.

And not to get too off topic still talking about abortion, but Gibson, I'd say the question of whether a man should get to choose whether to support a child he didn't want is a third thing entirely both from pro-or-anti-abortion and pro-or-anti-women's-choice. If anything, a man getting to choose to withdraw child support if the woman doesn't get an abortion is more "pro-abortion" (but still not really) than the opposite, since it's offering men a lever to make a woman's pregnancy more unwanted and so to encourage her to abort it. I'm not saying that's an argument against letting men choose to support the kid or not, just that letting men choose that isn't really anti-abortion or against something that is consequently pro-abortion.

Back on the topic of the comic, I agree with the interpretation that this ghost thing is a continuation of the dissociation thing, but once again badly breaking a metaphor. I think she's supposed to have stepped out of her body, but more literally than in actual dissociation, and is now an invisible spirit wandering about while her body is back somewhere with the Johnbie doing its thing. (Pun intended). Which, obviously, isn't how dissociation actually works.

Hexapodia Since: Jun, 2016
#33164: Jul 12th 2019 at 10:59:22 AM

Nobody is pro-abortion, or anti-life.

Yes, but ... Never say "nobody."

I think there are a few radfems who would deliberately get pregnant so they could have abortions and boost their "street cred." Although I can't cite them, I believe I've seen "I wish I could have an abortion" statements from a few extremists. For that matter, I know I've seen "All male fetuses should be aborted" statements from extremists.

Edited by Hexapodia on Jul 12th 2019 at 11:03:17 AM

Gibson35 King Kitty from Hunting in the jungle for s'mores Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
King Kitty
#33165: Jul 12th 2019 at 11:31:35 AM

The people who do that are antagonistic, like Tatsuya; they are purposely doing it to rile up the opposition and in so doing only gives ammunition to the people opposed. But you are also right. There are people like that out there. But thankfully they are fringe.

Also going back into the comic, I think Tat might have finally started to come down from being sensationalist. This will probably carry on until something in the news gets his dander up though and we are back at square one.

Edit: Yeah, besides his misunderstanding of the symptoms of dissassociation the comic has been alright. Still mock worthy, but alright.

I still assert that even in the Sunday comic he made the John a real person instead of a Johnbie which isn't much, but it's still an improvement.

Edited by Gibson35 on Jul 12th 2019 at 11:37:56 AM

I just came to talk about how horrible Sinfest is.
buli-buli Since: Feb, 2019
#33166: Jul 12th 2019 at 11:33:47 AM

Okay. I've been doing my best to avoid the comic so as to avoid upping the view counter there.

But here's my take on the whole metaphor thing.

We started off with named individuals representing (to widely differing degrees) different social groups or concepts as Tats saw them.

Many of them were characters in their own right which created further grey area.

Though it wasn't noticable at the time, this relatively tight dynamic began to end with the introduction of the devil girls and the angels. It made sense at the time. The Angels were needed because God was more intetested in laughing at everyone and Jesus spent his time beating the Devil in sports. And who better to show Slick what he could get in exchange for his Soul than a couple of scantily clad women hanging off of each of the Devil's arms?

But, this meant we now had races. Interestingly, we never really saw more angels, but the Devil ranks kept growing. The whole Devil metaphor eventually collapses with Fuschia's arc (she's still a Devil!) and the introduction of Devils who are in no way affiliated with (and sometimes opposed to) Satan. Confusingly, most devils continue to represent corruption and Evil anyway.

Then the Sisterhood shows up. And despite the number of people here calling Xanthe the harbringer of doom, she started off functionally the same as most other Sinfest characters. A childish representation of a social group. But, the Sisterhood was a different story. They showed up almost all at once. A first. And, in contrast to the Devils, they weren't a "team" of individuals with their own goals. Certainly, they had their own specialties, but the Sisterhood had always been a solid block. That remains unique.

Then come the fembots. They started off as a representation of how men really wanted stepford wives. This rapidly transitioned into fembots representing objectified women. Which quickly became virtually all women everywhere save already introduced women and later witches. This metaphor was the most confused by the presence of assassin fembots and later the odd third party normal woman.

But now. Now the fembot line seems discontinued and we are back to regular human women being sex workers. So... what was the point of the whole fembot revolution? From a thematic standpoint I mean?

As for the men, we've gone from regular joes and Devils working for Satan. To Devilhood can be a transitory state representing giving in to your darkside. To working for Satan as a human (man or woman!) To all men are secretly zombies. Or they just appear that way to the aware?

And all of this is greatly, greatly exacerbated by Tats complete inability to choose a plot and stick with it.

Gibson35 King Kitty from Hunting in the jungle for s'mores Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
King Kitty
#33167: Jul 12th 2019 at 11:51:19 AM

Very much agreed. I did like the devil girls, but now that you point it out that seemed to start the spiral. Not that it was bad, but that was when we started getting more and more characters. I think it probably came about because Tat couldn't keep coming up with material so he went the easy route: introduce new characters.

It's even gotten to the point where he will bring back old characters (Amber) and for no reason give them prominent roles in storylines that are discontinued when Tatsuya can't think of what to do with them (Woke TV). He's created a bit of a safety net because he has so many random characters and plotlines to give him time to craft a narrative, but it just makes the reader frustrated. Nothing seems to progress. And when it does, its with the ancillary characters we don't care about.

I love Bill Watterson (of Calvin and Hobbes fame). I have collected all his works. In his tenth anniversary book he talks about his writing process and mentions that the danger of going forward without a plan will quickly paint you in a corner.

I think Tat has been doing that for almost 17 years.

[down] That would actually be a GREAT idea story-wise. The idea that she is bound to the place, unable to interact with anyone? It would paint a great level of frustration without going too dark (which I think wants to avoid; he still wants to keep the comic lighter for some reason despite the subject material), It's novel, gets the point across...yeah. That would actually be a very creative and great move.

And that is ME, of all people (who generally mocks every aspect of the comic), saying that.

That is definitely more akin to making a point with a scalpel rather than a sledgehammer.

Edited by Gibson35 on Jul 12th 2019 at 2:12:57 AM

I just came to talk about how horrible Sinfest is.
buli-buli Since: Feb, 2019
#33168: Jul 12th 2019 at 12:08:26 PM

[up] Thank you.

Oh, and I suppose the ghost prostitute metaphor would work better if she only became invisible when leaving the BOMF district. So, the only people she can interact with are her johns, jailors, fellow prisoners.

Maybe some sort of Devil Corp magic contract or other product?

Edited by buli-buli on Jul 12th 2019 at 12:10:00 PM

HermelinGraduate Since: Aug, 2017
#33169: Jul 12th 2019 at 2:23:15 PM

The thing with Ghost Hooker is that dissociation does not work that way, she's only Ghost Hooker because Tats literally cannot address the "why do the hookers stay in a situation that is not doing anything to keep them in it?" question.

See, she is taking initiative to help herself, to ask for help from someone else. In the real world if a woman comes up to you and says "Hey, I need help, I'm being forced to have sex with strangers for money by an abusive pimp", you help her, any decent human being who isn't completely divorced from reality would not have to be asked twice.

Keeping her in ghost form means she cannot get the help she's asking for, and it's the public's fault for not seeing her, even if she's not physically there. It's a commentary on the invisibility of sex slaves in modern America (which is a real thing, particularly young, school-age victims who are forced to attend school and get good grades to maintain the image of a perfect home life) that again, shoots itself in the foot by having her not just be invisible, but not actually present. Ghost Hooker stays in the Helpless Victim box but is now immune to the criticism that she's not doing anything to help herself, because she physically can't.

Pfhorrest Since: Apr, 2011
#33170: Jul 12th 2019 at 2:39:07 PM

Bringing up the Fembots makes me think that the Johnbies should just be paired off with Fembots and leave the normal human men and women to get along with each other.

Although the question of whether Johnbies are actually different from normal human men or just the way some women see all men harkens back to the question of whether Fembots are meant to be a metaphor for how some men see all women or an actual ontologically different thing from normal human women.

I don't know if it can be reconciled with the past events of the comic, but it would be interesting (and therefore not something Tats would do) to have a comic where a normal human man is approaching a Fembot for sex... and then we switch perspectives to see the same scene, except the man is a Johnbie and the Fembot is a normal human woman. They each see themselves as human and the other as some kind of mindless nonperson.

HermelinGraduate Since: Aug, 2017
#33171: Jul 12th 2019 at 6:31:40 PM

[up]

They each see themselves as human and the other as some kind of mindless nonperson.

That is some on-point shit right there, Boss.

It never occurred to me that the whole "Johnbie" thing is itself a form of objectification, it's just a specific object and that object is a literal corpse. The radfem agenda has never really seemed to have a problem with hypocrisy when it comes to its treatment of men. It's not the responsibility of feminists to congratulate men for treating women like human beings, that's the bare minimum of what feminism expects from men, but part of the reasoning for that is because feminism expects decency of men.

The radfem perspective that Sinfest stands on doesn't expect better. It condemns them for not being better, but it doesn't actually expect them to be better or give them any reason to examine their own privilege. Its only message to men is "You are bad. Everything bad that happens to women is your fault because you exist within a power structure that favors you," whether the man being addressed is a CEO who has to buy a new sex slave every other week because he had his dick surgically replaced with a chainsaw, or the 16-year-old checkout guy at your local grocery store.

In Sinfest specifically, any man who encounters the Sisterhood without already being aware of the Patrix is only going come away with the understanding that it's awesome that they've got the top spot in the hierarchy, because if they didn't, that psycho kid on the hoverboard yelling "Kill all men!" would murder them'.

The Johnbie thing is just exactly the same stupid, sexist stereotyping that Sinfest claims to be against.. except that it's a sexist stereotype of men, so it's fine. Fuckkin' A.

NeedsAirCon from Access Denied....Human Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#33172: Jul 12th 2019 at 8:09:42 PM

https://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2019-07-13

Be thankful you're not real. Imagine having "took a part in Sinfest" on your acting resume!

The author of this webcomic is having one of his relatively sane periods, but pretty soon, he's going to be going more cuckoo than a swiss watchmaker's novelty shop catalogue.

Protip when that happens? Duck for cover and hope he keeps up his habit of sucker punching his current fanbase (at the time) and/or his male characters

On the positive side, you will be freed from prostitution, and be able to run free into the sunset, without even having to tell anyone your name.

How do we know? Because Tats seems to run the same storyline at least every other year. Now I think about it, he also has an apparent mental breakdown every year too

Is it wrong to both want to take pity on and laugh at the same guy at the same time?

P.S. It's very nice to see a serious inkling of some decent story nicely shaping up, but hey, it's Tats! This will all fall apart with one single misconceived comic strip

We all know that metaphorical 16 wheeler truck is sitting under his bridge, engine just throbbing at the chance to be driven backwards at 200mph through a ferry terminal packed full of brand new cars...

Resist the urge, Tats, man! You can do a decent story! Heck, you can do a great story! (Just none of us expect you to anymore, which is kind of sad)

But, yeah, I'm expecting the kind of car crash that makes insurance companies go bankrupt just by thinking about it....

Edited by NeedsAirCon on Jul 12th 2019 at 3:14:18 PM

Skynet Is Inevitable. Skynet IS...Undergoing Repairs Atm.Please re-insert plug and reboot
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#33173: Jul 12th 2019 at 8:10:40 PM

New strip:

https://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2019-07-13

Nameless J. Hooker sees transparent hookers.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Jul 12th 2019 at 11:13:02 AM

NeedsAirCon from Access Denied....Human Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#33174: Jul 12th 2019 at 8:12:56 PM

[nja]

Skynet Is Inevitable. Skynet IS...Undergoing Repairs Atm.Please re-insert plug and reboot
Garvalan Since: Nov, 2010
#33175: Jul 12th 2019 at 8:15:54 PM

I guess the metaphor is that only woke women can see the problems of other women? Kinda makes sense.


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