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Kyon: Big Damn Hero

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RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1151: Feb 8th 2011 at 1:38:26 PM

It's not the knowledge that I think is going to break him, it's the discovery whilst in an emotional nadir and left to think he's cheating on five girls at once.

There's also Haruhi's request that he not hide anything whilst she was still being dishonest and the way that this appears to be the first time Nagato has withheld any information from Kyon. Not helpful.

edited 8th Feb '11 1:45:50 PM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
PaxEmpyrean Since: Oct, 2010
#1152: Feb 8th 2011 at 1:57:43 PM

I don't think he thinks he's cheating on five girls at once. Tsuruya gave him permission, Kyon knows Yuki knows everything, and the others are all aware of his engagement to Tsuruya. He's gone out on a few dates with several girls at once and had little romantic moments throughout.

In Kyon's mind, he has one official relationship, and a bunch of other people's feelings to consider. The official relationship partner has given express permission to kiss the others.

Even with a very strict viewpoint, he'd be "cheating" on three girls that he isn't dating, all of whom know he's not exclusive with them. I think the surprise will be that they planned it, not that they knew it was happening.

RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1153: Feb 8th 2011 at 2:01:13 PM

I think it's the trust thing that's likely to cause the biggest problem. That he probably thought he was cheating on someone or going to hurt someone is merely something that would exacerbate the issue.

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Filraen That One Boss from New Donk City Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#1154: Feb 8th 2011 at 2:11:03 PM

canon!Yuki withheld information to Kyon in the 7th novel by Haruhi's request. It the whole reason for the digging.

But I agree, their relationship is strained because they aren't telling everything needed to each other. Add everybody's own insecurities and we have a very curious scenario.

I don't think he thinks he's cheating on five girls at once. Tsuruya gave him permission, Kyon knows Yuki knows everything, and the others are all aware of his engagement to Tsuruya. He's gone out on a few dates with several girls at once and had little romantic moments throughout.

Kyon's "moral" perspective about relationship on which he was raised by social standards (monogamous relationships) won't change just because Tsuruya says it's okay. After all, he still comments about the special hell he's going to.

edited 8th Feb '11 2:21:58 PM by Filraen

Kyon: Big Damn Hero: timeline & trailer
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1155: Feb 8th 2011 at 2:16:25 PM

Has she ever withheld anything, a weird ploy to give Itsuki and Kyon chocolate aside?

Yes. This is an interesting situation.

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Filraen That One Boss from New Donk City Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#1156: Feb 8th 2011 at 2:20:56 PM

Nothing else apart from her own being/status/feelings/thoughts (mix and match those), and that you can blame that to her personality.

edited 8th Feb '11 2:30:21 PM by Filraen

Kyon: Big Damn Hero: timeline & trailer
PaxEmpyrean Since: Oct, 2010
#1157: Feb 8th 2011 at 2:21:36 PM

Being worried about hurting someone's feelings seems a lot more likely than being worried about "cheating" on people who know that he's not in an exclusive relationship. That's a legitimate concern and the lack of disclosure up until this point has some justification, but probably not enough.

I don't see it as an emotional train wreck waiting to happen, though. This is the sort of story where the cast of Higurashi get a happy harem ending, for crying out loud. The problems the characters will have to overcome to make it work will serve as fuel for character development and further relationship building, like every single problem encountered in this story so far.

RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1158: Feb 8th 2011 at 2:27:10 PM

The cast of Higurashi got a happy ending after the events detailed in the story (which, in Rika and Hanyuu's case are ridiculous) and Rika's nearly ruining everything. We also don't know how stable it was in the beginning, given that it's likely been around for all or most of Kyon's life - so long that he can't see anything as abnormal. That they have a happy ending after centuries of suffering is hardly surprising.

One or two assurances she doesn't mind against sixteen years of societal pressures. Guess which is likely to be more pressing, since Kyon's hardly madly in love.

Wonder if Kanae's been in the world glimpsed at the end of Kai? Would be nice to see how Miyo got on without Hinamizawa Syndrome in her life.

edited 8th Feb '11 2:28:24 PM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
PaxEmpyrean Since: Oct, 2010
#1159: Feb 8th 2011 at 4:50:48 PM

That they have a happy ending after centuries of suffering is hardly surprising.
That they hit a happy ending after centuries of suffering isn't surprising, but reaching it to coincide with the events of Kyon: Big Damn Hero is.

I don't know why you're so sure Kyon's headed for some kind of serious breakdown. It doesn't make sense with the events of the story, with Kyon's character, or the tone of the story so far.

From the Watsonian angle, Kyon has faced the destruction of the universe on a regular basis. The revelation that all of the girls he sort of likes all like him back isn't as big of a psychological blow as learning, for instance, that your parents have decided that you're going to get married into an organized crime syndicate. He handled that pretty well. I fail to see how this is somehow so much bigger that he would completely cease to function. Even when everything he knew was changed during Disappearance, he didn't completely shut down. He panicked and went into overdrive to figure out what was going on, but he was still working at a solution. The BSOD is a complete and total shutdown, albeit a temporary one.

From a Doylist perspective, K:BDH is a very positive story. Every trial and hardship is just an obstacle to be overcome in awesome ways and provide opportunities for character development and relationship building. The trials are definitely nothing to sneeze at (like getting shot) but there's always a ton of positive stuff afterward and everybody's better off when it's done. Kyon mentally shutting down completely or reverting back to his pre-Disappearance resentment of the SOS Brigade goes completely against the tone and direction of the story so far. Would he react with shock and surprise, and maybe a period of resentment for being kept in the dark? Probably. I bet he'll get real snarky too, at least until one of the girls gives him a "Shut Up" Kiss. As for a BSOD, probably not, unless it's so brief that it's a stretch to even call it that.

One or two assurances she doesn't mind against sixteen years of societal pressures.
I'll see your sixteen years of societal pressures and raise you two hundred thousand years of evolutionarily reinforced biological imperative. Kyon has shown exactly zero resistance to any of the girls in the SOS Brigade so far. He's already said the Special Hell is a small price to pay; finding out that the girls are all cool with it makes things easier, not harder.

Filraen That One Boss from New Donk City Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#1160: Feb 8th 2011 at 7:12:41 PM

I'm not saying Kyon will have a breakdown, I'm saying he'll have an Heroic BSoD. Why? *puts Rules Lawyer cap*. Let's take a look at the definition in the trope page:

Heroic Blue Screen of Death: An earth-shattering revelation or horrible event affects the hero or someone he cares deeply about, leaving him flummoxed or shocked to the point of mentally shutting down for a while. Alternatively, if this occurs during a fight with one of the Big Bad's minions, the hero may have a violent outburst, with the ensuing catastrophe killing Evil Minions and knocking his companions in different directions. In the latter case, the hero may disappear into the fog of war and have to be tracked down by his friends and given a heaping helping of Epiphany Therapy.

This definition isn't rigid, as it carries many options on itself. This is one possible instance of the trope according to the definition (note that I'm only cutting branches, without changin the meaning:

Heroic Blue Screen of Death: An earth-shattering revelation or horrible event affects the hero or someone he cares deeply about, leaving him flummoxed or shocked to the point of mentally shutting down for a while. Alternatively, if this occurs during a fight with one of the Big Bad's minions, the hero may have a violent outburst, with the ensuing catastrophe killing Evil Minions and knocking his companions in different directions. In the latter case, the hero may disappear into the fog of war and have to be tracked down by his friends and given a heaping helping of Epiphany Therapy.

An earth-shattering revelation affects the hero, leaving him flummoxed or shocked to the point of mentally shutting down for a while. I'm using this instance of the trope for my claim.

Now the reason for the BSOD. The whole Tenchi Solution involves people who(m?) Kyon cares the most. And friendship is one of the pillars of Kyon's character, to the point it's one of few things he believes he's good at. Quote on the trope page:

Reasons for the BSOD vary, but usually involves something that shakes the very core of the character's being.

Finally I want to mention another very important point: Tropes Are Flexible. Nobody says how long the BSOD lasts, it can be seasons to minutes, or permanently. The BSOD can be easy or hard to snap from, but consider the troubles Kyon has right now.

Right now Kyon is honestly worried about what he has done wrong, with the pressure added of his Arranged Marriage, Kanae (who posibly had left a whole set of Alternate Universe selves... dead? Empty Shell? he doesn't know) and her enemies (including someone who shares her last name and another version of Kanae, whom Kyon is scared to meet), incredibly mixed messages from Haruhi and Tsuruya, being kissed by all of the girls on the brigade (my point was made a previous post), worried about the IDSE who might interfere at any moment after what happened with Kimidori, trying to protect Sasaki while trying not to tell Haruhi, trying to get the right amount of involvment for Yuki in his troubles (with the incident in December and the reasons behind them fresh in his memory) and messing up because he didn't call her, Kuyou Suou's affection (which Kyon doesn't know what to do with that), seeing Yuki scared and believing she was breaking up with him... his emotional defenses are the lowest right now. His chances to BSOD at Haruhi's reveal are the highest right now. And don't forget Kyon doesn't get easily romantic issues. He will shut down mentally for a while.

But the BSOD won't stick, and Kyon won't have a breakwown or revert to his pre-Disappearance attitude, all the opposite. I agree the fic is firmly planted in the idealistic side of the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism with The Power of Friendship and The Power of Trust put firmly on place. I believe Kyon will get better; if anything, he will be too shocked to give any answer the same night and a good night's sleep will be enough to snap him from the BSOD. Not the he'll have an answer, mind you, but he will be able to comprehend and evaluate Haruhi's revelation/request. Ultimately he will accept, when? I don't know; it may be soon or not.

Of course it all depends on how Haruhi and Tsuruya will manage the reveal to Kyon. Your "Shut Up" Kiss option is viable too, but still it'd be an instance no matter how short.

In short, I agree with your reasons to believe Kyon will accept Haruhi's proposal but it will take a little longer.

And about the revelation to Kyon, who else is bothered that only Haruhi and Tsuruya are going be in that moment? After all, All the five girls are declaring(word?) themselves at the same time to Kyon, they should be there.

edited 8th Feb '11 7:26:21 PM by Filraen

Kyon: Big Damn Hero: timeline & trailer
PaxEmpyrean Since: Oct, 2010
#1161: Feb 8th 2011 at 7:35:23 PM

Does Kyon ever mentally shut down, though? When faced with the idea that everything he knows is wrong and his friends don't know him (Disappearance), he freaks out and panics but doesn't mentally shut down. When he has an arranged marriage dumped in his lap with no warning, he doesn't mentally shut down there either. It's just not Kyon's nature to mentally lock up. His special power might as well be his ability to deal with all the weird crap that happens around him.

I could see Kyon having a BSOD if his friends abandoned him. Their friendship literally means more than the world to him, and something that destroyed that could put him into a BSOD if anything could. But the Tenchi Solution doesn't destroy that, it just pushes the relationship to the next level. It's not like it's coming completely out of nowhere either; he knows they all like him already. He just doesn't know that what they've been doing is intentional.

If you want to define the Heroic BSOD as something on the same level as a moment of shocked dumbfoundedness, then sure that'll probably happen. Rainy Daze suggested it would send Kyon's attitude back to what it was at the start of Melancholy, which I find highly unlikely. Personally when I hear "BSOD" I think of something more like a nervous breakdown, not just a moment's stunned confusion.

Silver from under a sandstone rock Since: Jan, 2001
#1162: Feb 8th 2011 at 7:49:45 PM

The worst part of this is that no matter how the explanation happens, the first three pages of discussion after the new chapter will be arguments about whether Kyon's reaction qualifies as a BSOD. :P

My Fanfic, My Fanart
PaxEmpyrean Since: Oct, 2010
#1163: Feb 8th 2011 at 8:13:47 PM

Semantics, while absolutely necessary, are easy to get bogged down in. Add to that the extra emotional baggage that comes with defending a definition or having to admit being wrong about something and it basically goes forever until someone gets sick of it. It's probably better to not use a trope to describe a predicted event, since a trope is somewhat flexible as Filraen pointed out above. That just turns into arguing about what the trope means.

So here's how I'm calling it: Kyon will not run and hide from his friends. He won't revert back to his pre-Disappearance attitude of resenting them. He'll be shocked, maybe frustrated that they didn't tell him, but at no point will he completely check out mentally. He'll probably suggest that someone is crazy at some point, even chances it's himself or the girls. A facepalm will probably happen at some point.

Filraen That One Boss from New Donk City Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#1164: Feb 8th 2011 at 8:48:54 PM

I like to play by the definitions so it doesn't fall under wrong uses of the trope. For example: I recently deleted the That Came Out Wrong entry because it didn't have anything that could be misconstrued as a dirty joke (the example cited was Kyon wrongly believing Yuki was breaking up with him). The point is, if a trope is defined as "A or B or C" any of A, B or C is an instance of it.

Anyway, at the end I saw our position are almost the same. We agree Kyon won't turn back on his friends or revert to a pre-Disappearance attitude. The only disagreement I see is he will hut down mentally or not and the only way to see if he does it or nor is in next chapters. And honestly, I don't believe I'll be able to see it on text format if it happens.

Kyon: Big Damn Hero: timeline & trailer
thedarkfreak Since: Jan, 2001
#1165: Feb 8th 2011 at 10:48:20 PM

On a different note, I've gone over the main page, and I've decided to bring something up that's kinda been bugging me for a while: The first 'Fridge Brilliance' entry, the one about why Mikuru seemed distracted and suggested going to a different cafe.

My first issue is whether this incident is really an example. I personally don't think of it as Fridge Brilliance if the story outright tells you what happened later on. I suppose it could be for forming theories about later on, but I think that would fall more under 'I Knew It!', as the Fridge entries seem to deal with examining the story in afterthought, not speculating on future plot twists.

My second issue is nitpicking, and simple: the reason given isn't what happened in the story. Adult!Mikuru and Kyon were planning on going to the cafe, but Adult!Mikuru specifically says she hasn't sent the order yet, because she wants to know why it was necessary in the first place, and if they choose not to go to that particular cafe, then the order won't be. Then they run into Sasaki's group, who are going to the cafe. Knowing that a meeting between Sasaki's group and the past-Brigade's group would most likely be problematic at the time, the order was sent to prevent the two from meeting. Adult!Mikuru and Kyon never wound up going there anyway.

As the entry itself seemed to be speculation, though, I can forgive it as a reasonable conclusion for someone examining the story at that point to make.

edited 8th Feb '11 10:50:43 PM by thedarkfreak

RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1166: Feb 8th 2011 at 11:55:27 PM

I think that's just another Stable Time Loop, actually. I've never been entirely sure why it was listed as Fridge Brilliance.

I'm absolutely certain that relationship trouble is going to cause more mental problems for Kyon than the end of the world. He's bizarrely good at handling the latter and kind of awkward at handling the former, which may have a lot to do with associating with Sasaki.

Not to mention that his relationships with people seem to be brilliant at causing masses of supernatural trouble. Haruhi looped a summer for over five centuries  *

and nearly annihilated the world, Nagato rewrote the world, and getting close to Mikuru nearly lead to the end of the world. That's in canon, in K:BDH things have just got... weirder. Including risking the end of the world again.

It's nearly at 400,000 words, now.

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
MadKitsu Why do I need a title again? from Somewhere Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Mu
Why do I need a title again?
#1167: Feb 9th 2011 at 6:53:39 PM

Well, saving the world isn't exactly new for Kyon, now is it? Granted, he has a more varied set of methods in which to do so now, but as the old saying goes, "The more things change, the more they stay the same", right?

I'm still interested in whether Tachibana will get some Character Development somewhere down the line, if only to display her personal reaction to Kyon's "Big Damn Hero" moment against her associates while he was helping Sasaki. I wonder who's side she'll be on...

edited 9th Feb '11 8:16:50 PM by MadKitsu

I have returned, and my vacation in the void was so boring...
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1168: Feb 9th 2011 at 11:40:35 PM

Tachibana? Well, unless she plans to try and shoot Kyon, I'm pretty sure that her contributions would be meaningless either way. In that case she'd only serve to panic people.

edited 9th Feb '11 11:51:17 PM by RainyDaze

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Augustine My King from the Church on the hill Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
My King
#1169: Feb 10th 2011 at 5:13:35 AM

I don't know about how she was in the novels, because I am only up to novel 7, but she seemed fairly sympathetic in this story. Hopefully she will ditch her organization and help out Kyon.

I find it interesting that the antagonists are for the most part, background characters and original characters.

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PaxEmpyrean Since: Oct, 2010
#1170: Feb 10th 2011 at 6:20:01 AM

Even in the novels, the antagonists aren't really major characters either. For quite a while the closest thing the story has to an antagonist is Haruhi herself.

Augustine My King from the Church on the hill Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1172: Feb 10th 2011 at 8:02:20 AM

When the only characters that aren't background characters are the Brigade, it's hard to turn them into antagonists.

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
PaxEmpyrean Since: Oct, 2010
#1173: Feb 10th 2011 at 8:41:50 AM

One of the things that I like about the Haruhi series is how it doesn't really follow a lot of typical literary conventions, but still manages to work anyway. Kyon: Big Damn Hero needs to use more conventional villains because they provide more opportunities for Kyon to be a hero. Despite abandoning that quirk of the original stories, I still think it's better than canon.

edited 10th Feb '11 8:42:20 AM by PaxEmpyrean

Augustine My King from the Church on the hill Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
My King
#1174: Feb 10th 2011 at 9:45:52 AM

When the only characters that aren't background characters are the Brigade, it's hard to turn them into antagonists.

Durandall still did an amazing job of taking people with literally one sentence of characterization and making them convincing antagonists, at least until Yanagimoto pulled a Heel–Face Turn and Jun was dealt with.

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RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1175: Feb 10th 2011 at 9:55:43 AM

It's probably easier to do it with one sentence of characterisation, since that sentence is unlikely to preclude the possibility of their being an antagonist. The more you get, the more difficult it's likely to become to turn someone into an antagonist, right?

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.

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