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Doesn't seem different from Total Eclipse Of The Plot: Convenient Eclipse

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GeneralGrant Since: Jun, 2010
#1: Nov 4th 2010 at 6:09:35 PM

The description for Convenient Eclipse is so inclusive, you would expect there to be more example than there are, yet nearly every example is about an actual eclipse. Which should probably be under Total Eclipse of the Plot. I think either this needs to be reworked into what the description seems to be getting at (any other day of the year the protagonists would be screwed, but fortunately there's a festival/event/eclipse/whatever, if we don't already have a different trope that covers that), or just merge with Total Eclipse of the Plot.

Yamikuronue So Yeah Since: Aug, 2009
#2: Nov 5th 2010 at 6:59:59 AM

Can the quote be translated into proper English grammar on the Convenient Eclipse page? It looks like word salad. I think it's communicating "Jesus' kerosene lamp fucked up", but that's after staring at it for a few minutes. Perhaps a translation after the quote itself, or a better quote?

BTW, I'm a chick.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#3: Nov 5th 2010 at 7:56:42 AM

If it's a quote, then no, it can't be "put into proper English." The guy didn't say it in proper English. If we rewrite it into proper English, we aren't quoting him anymore; we're paraphrasing.

Yamikuronue So Yeah Since: Aug, 2009
#4: Nov 5th 2010 at 8:17:55 AM

What I mean is something like:

"Kerosene lamp belong Jesus gone bugger up." [Translation: Jesus's kerosene lamp blew up]

Or a better quote altogether.

edited 5th Nov '10 8:18:21 AM by Yamikuronue

BTW, I'm a chick.
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#5: Nov 6th 2010 at 4:24:18 PM

If I were guessing, I would have guessed that Total Eclipse of the Plot is about metaphoric eclipses, while Convenient Eclipse is about real ones. It seems to be exactly the opposite. As a first stab, I would suggest simply reversing the two trope names (I'm am very much open to better, more accurate, or more nuanced alternative plans, though).

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#6: Nov 6th 2010 at 4:27:12 PM

[up][up] Agree with "better quote altogether". Current one implies Translation Train Wreck (or something) is also part of the trope. It's not.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
GeneralGrant Since: Jun, 2010
#7: Nov 7th 2010 at 11:12:55 AM

Yeah, the page quote is just horrible, I couldn't figure out what the hell it was supposed to be saying, actually I'm still not sure. If we keep it we should probably add a plain English "translation" underneath it, but I don't see what it has to do with the trope anyway.

But the trope has a bigger problem, its description and examples are out of sync. I guess people just look at the title and assume it's only about eclipses. And the fact that most examples so far are about eclipses probably discourages people from adding examples that aren't. Maybe it just needs a rename?

AndrewJ That Young Knockout Kid from Washington, DC Since: May, 2009
That Young Knockout Kid
#9: Nov 8th 2010 at 5:25:30 AM

Date Based Deus Ex Machina?

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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#10: Nov 10th 2010 at 9:50:32 AM

How is Convenient Eclipse distinct from from Deus ex Machina at all? They're both "something completely unrelated to the characters' actions randomly shows up and saves the day".

Total Eclipse of the Plot could use a rename too, given that the current one implies that the eclipse acts as a Plot Tumor and somehow becomes all-important to the story.

edited 10th Nov '10 9:50:47 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#11: Nov 10th 2010 at 1:48:24 PM

Well it doesn't have to be a Deus ex Machina.

Think of it as really good luck with the timing. The characters can have been told the date of the event before hand, references can be dropped in, a Chekhov's Gun placed, it can even be rather dully transparent what is about to happen. It's just that the event's timing was something out of the hero's control. They have no way to get out of it without that eclipse or flood or historic battle in a time travel scenario occuring.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#12: Nov 11th 2010 at 7:24:45 AM

So Convenient Eclipse is "the heroes are saved by an inexplicably lucky conincidence" and Deus ex Machina is "the heroes are saved by some force outside their control".

Which, again, is different how exactly?

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Yamikuronue So Yeah Since: Aug, 2009
#13: Nov 11th 2010 at 8:34:33 AM

As it is now it seems to be a subtrope.

Example: Fred and Daphne are captured by Vorblogs!

Deus ex Machina but not Convenient Eclipse: Fred happened to be wearing a red shirt and Vorblogs won't kill anything red so they make him their high priest and let him go.

Convenient Eclipse: It happened to be the third tuesday in november which is national Vorblog no-killing day, so they let him go.

BTW, I'm a chick.
carla Since: Jan, 2010
#14: Nov 11th 2010 at 9:26:54 AM

i think SSOT was emphasizing the fact that a Deus ex Machina is a more "sudden" force intervening (hence why the laconic for it is pretty much "Ass Pull that solves the plot"), while a Convenient Eclipse is just that, a specific date/event that is convenient for the plot in some way. it doesn't necessarily have to be sudden.

take the Avatar The Last Airbender example: the eclipse was very convenient for the heroes, because it was the one moment when the firebenders would be rendered powerless, making it easier for the heroes to take them down. however, they knew about that eclipse almost two seasons before it actually happened, to the point that they actually prepared their plan of invasion that day. that is a case of Convenient Eclipse (although subverted, i guess, since the good guys didn't actually win on eclipse day).

the energybending in the finale (or more like the giant lion-turtle that taught aang the energybending), however, that's a Deus ex Machina. because there was no foreshadowing for it whatsoever, not even a hint that it could be possible, but it solved every one of The Hero's moral problems just a few minutes before the series ending.

so, basically, the difference between Convenient Eclipse and Deus ex Machina is the suddenness of it. or the Ass Pull quality, if that makes it clearer. going by that, there can be overlap, as in the example yami posted.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#15: Nov 11th 2010 at 9:36:05 AM

By that definition, carla, Convenient Eclipse is synonymous with Plot Device. "A thing that's introduced into the story and help drives the plot along."

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#16: Nov 11th 2010 at 9:57:59 AM

No. That's not a definition. What Carla wrote was not a definition so don't interpret it as such. When one writes a comparison between two objects one is not necessarily writing the defintion, in fact people generally speaking don't do that at all when they want to make a comparison because comparisons are often best served by being selective with what you say.

""A thing that's introduced into the story and help drives the plot along."

That's just not what we've been saying. "A thing" completely misses what the article says and pointing out that it is a plot device is pointless in the fact that the article calls itself a plot device and is on the Narrative Device and Plot Device indices. It's a date and timing.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#17: Nov 11th 2010 at 10:53:01 AM

The Convenient Eclipse article doesn't mention Plot Device anywhere in its description and it's only listed as a Plot Device subtrope because you just added it. It's also worth noting that carla's example doesn't fit the description of Convenient Eclipse as written, because it's not an event that "yields an unexpected outcome" because of "sheer dumb luck on [the heroes'] part". The fact that they knew about it beforehand and made a plan based on it makes it explicitly not a Convenient Eclipse by the current definition.

It sounds like you're wanting to define Convenient Eclipse as a subtrope of Deus ex Machina that relies on the heroes being in the right place at the right time to be aided by some random event. If that's the case, I call The Same But More Specific and say just roll it in with Deus ex Machina. If the heroes are running from the villains and say "quick, we need a distraction!" and suddently a parade comes marching down the street, that's just a Deus ex Machina, no subtrope necessary.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#18: Nov 11th 2010 at 11:04:38 AM

I generally agree that the name Convenient Eclipse is overly specific and fails to indicate the general case it's intended to cover. It could work as a subtrope of Deus ex Machina where it's the date/time that conveniently resolves the problem out of nowhere with sufficient examples, but it would need a better name. At the risk of being booed off the stage, I could offer Date Ex Machina. wink Or possibly Calendar Ex Machina.

edited 11th Nov '10 11:04:50 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#19: Nov 11th 2010 at 11:05:20 AM

Really? Writing about how this is distinct from Deus ex Machina and has more the qualities of a Plot Device sounds like I'm saying this is a subtrope of Deus ex Machina. If you're Beethoven, maybe.

It talks about plot devices in the second line.

"the heroes being in the right place at the right time to be aided by some random event."

I stress that last part because there is the problem with the trope name. I've been calling them "dates" to specifically exclude the idea of being some random occurance. Finding a representative term is hard which is probably why the original namers used "eclipse" as a stand in.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#20: Nov 11th 2010 at 11:28:44 AM

Let's not get snippy.

Deus ex Machina and Plot Device are not mutually exclusive, a Deus ex Machina is actually a subtrope of Plot Device. A Plot Device is something that drives the plot forward. A Deus ex Machina is something that appears without warning, and without the influence of the heroes, and somehow improves their situation or solves their problem. A Convenient Eclipse, by your defintion, is something that helps the heroes by virtue of it happening to be a specific day/time. That's different from what the current description of Convenient Eclipse is (but that's okay, because we're trying to fix it), but I don't think it's distinct enough to split off from Deus ex Machina.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Yamikuronue So Yeah Since: Aug, 2009
#21: Nov 11th 2010 at 3:16:43 PM

SSOT, *I* suggested Convenient Eclipse be a subtrope of Deus ex Machina, it's not like that came out of the aether.

BTW, I'm a chick.
SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#22: Nov 11th 2010 at 4:12:26 PM

Really? With your aether hair and aether clothes and aether coloured eyes and your cool aether jacket with the word "AETHER" written on the back?

Hem. [up][up] That's exactly what the current definition is and I have the examples to search for common threads.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#23: Nov 12th 2010 at 8:12:06 AM

I won't bother arguing about whether that's what the current definition is or not, because it's ultimately irrelevant. I don't think that that definition is splittable from Deus ex Machina, because it's The Same But More Specific.

I vote we just merge its examples with Deus ex Machina's and delete the article.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
ExpiryBot Since: Dec, 1969
#24: Jan 12th 2011 at 11:04:10 AM

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