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SCMof2814 Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: I don't mind being locked in this eternal maze!
#2451: Jul 6th 2018 at 9:47:32 PM

I point out that the way the story is told, Surgebinding is originally Voidlight-powered. Maybe the reason Radiants get two powers instead of one is that one is provided by Honor, and the other is from Cultivation?

Edited by SCMof2814 on Jul 7th 2018 at 12:50:33 AM

32ndfreeze from Australia Since: Mar, 2012
#2452: Jul 6th 2018 at 11:59:13 PM

I wonder if any part(s) of Odium's systems come from or are inspired by Devotion/Domination.

We'll need to see some more details on that first though.

Hopefully in Part II we get some POV characters who actually understand Voidbinding.

"But if that happened, Melia might actually be happy. We can't have that." - Handsome Rob
rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#2453: Jul 7th 2018 at 12:07:51 AM

I'm hella down to head back to Sel for a deep dive into the magic system(s) irrespective of any light it sheds on Roshar shenanigans. Emperor's Soul is one of my favorite bits of Cosmere writing, and there's plenty of world we've yet to get a look at.

RavenWilder Raven Wilder Since: Apr, 2009
Raven Wilder
#2454: Jul 7th 2018 at 1:22:41 AM

Maybe there are ten levels of Voidbinding, but while most forms are found used by various Fused, Odium has reserved one form to be used only by his Champion, and so is unknown.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#2455: Jul 13th 2018 at 8:12:15 AM

Oathbringer reread chapters 31 and 32 updated. Kaladin leaves the parshmen and saves people. Shallan's chapter is short.

There was a deeper mystery behind that, a wisp of something she'd glimpsed while intertwined with Re-Shephir. It made Shallan wonder if this spren wasn't merely trying to understand humankind, but rather searching for something it itself had lost.
Had this creature—in distant, distant time before memory—once been human?

L: Yikes.
A: It's almost certain that they were some kind of person, long ago, before they were Unmade. Whether they were human, singer, Aimian, or something else... I can't venture to guess what they were, but they were unmade from something. It could almost make me pity them. Almost.

I assumed that the Unmade were just spren that Odium had personally corrupted. Shallan recognizes Re-Shephir as similar to a creationspren. But it could be a mix of stuff.

"She was captive," Shallan whispered. "She eventually escaped, but that was centuries ago."

L: Okay so... if we're operating under the assumption that she was captured in a perfect gemstone, HOW did she escape? I'd love to hear the story behind that.
A: All I can guess is that it wasn't quite perfect. But I do hope we get more of this story!

That was my guess; the Radiants were desperate and didn't have a perfect gemstone, so they used the best they had and hoped for the best. We don't know how long Re-Shephir was sealed. For all we know, it was only like a week, but by the time she escaped everyone had already evacuated. Maybe that's even why they evacuated? Like, they were planning to anyway, and then some idiot sealed Re-Shephir in an imperfect gemstone, so they decided to get out before she exploded like some evil bomb?

"They're Voidbringers."
"No, they're people. And they're angry, with good reason. ... I know that feeling. It burns in you, worms inside your brain until you forget everything but the injustice done to you. It's how I felt about Elhokar. Sometimes a world of rational explanations can become meaningless in the face of that all-consuming desire to get what you deserve."

L: It's nice to see the self-reflection here on Kaladin's part. He recognizes the flaw in himself—which is, of course, the first step towards overcoming it.

I also like that we get to see an honorspren, of all things, being racist. Since she's a representation of humanity's ideal of honor, she's internalized a lot of their racism. In most stories angels are just perfect (or jerks), without really worrying about how that would work and how they would get to that point.

"Is this what you want, Sah? To conquer the kingdom? Destroy humankind?"
"Storms, I don't know," he said. "But I can't be a slave again, Kal. I won't let them take Vai and imprison her."

L: Aside from the rather, ah... topical things we could note (::I will not discuss politics in a reread I will not discuss politics in a reread::), I'll instead say that I feel for Sah so hard, here. This is such an awful position to be in. I don't think anyone ever wants to really kill other people (if they do, they're probably a bit unhinged), so being put in the position of having to do so to protect yourself and your children? Ugh.

I don't want to discuss politics either, but fucking hell, imprisoning children should not be topical.

L: Okay so... if the Stormfather is the fragment that remains of the Almighty... What about the other Siblings? Alice, you're the Cosmere scholar, help me out with the Shard possibilities going on here. Is he a Shard? Was the Almighty a Shard?
A: Yup. The "Almighty" they refer to was, as far as we know, the Shard Honor. Who started calling him that, or why, we don't yet know, but the Stormfather now holds much of Honor's investiture. Taking the title of "Almighty" seems a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, what with Cultivation sitting right there being just as much a Shard of Adonalsium as Honor! Anyway, Brandon said that the Stormfather's relationship with Honor (before he was splintered) was pretty much the same as the Nightwatcher's relationship with Cultivation. A lot of people assume that means the Sibling had a similar relationship with Odium, but we know that's not true, because Brandon also specified that Odium's equivalent relationship is the Unmade collectively. It's quite possible that the reason the Sibling could go to sleep is that they aren't tied so closely to a Shard. It's also quite possible that Sibling had some kind of special relationship with Adonalsium himself, since this planet was specifically designed and created by Adonalsium. We don't know, but I think that last is a cool theory, anyway.

Didn't know we had a Word of God that the Unmade are collectively Odium's godspren. I mean, I think we had figured it out, but still interesting to have it stated outright.

RavenWilder Raven Wilder Since: Apr, 2009
Raven Wilder
#2456: Jul 13th 2018 at 11:10:41 AM

Maybe they had a perfect gemstone to contain an Unmade, but they left it in a part of Urithiru where, every few days, some condensation would collect on the ceiling above it and a drop of water would fall down. After a few millennia, this added up to enough erosion to break the gemstone.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#2457: Jul 14th 2018 at 3:22:30 PM

So while I was away I got through Way of Kings, Words of Radaince and Oathbringer. I thought Oathbringer was the best but I was looking at the TSA YMMV page and this bugs me:

Taravangian is a ruthless Chess Master who is murdering and betraying his way to absolute power for what he considers the greater good, being perfectly willing to start bloody wars and throw entire nations into anarchy if that's what advances his plans. And to make it even worse it's revealed in Oathbringer that he's not even doing it to defeat Odium. He's doing it to make himself as credible a threat to Odium as possible, so that when he surrenders to him he'll be able to get favourable terms. It's not even utopia that justifies the means for Taravangian, it's just a slightly better sort of dystopia! At the same time, he's a frail old man who knows he's not long for this world, one who's constantly straining against the limitations of his Disability Superpower to do what he thinks needs to be done, and who spends half the time afflicted with crippling guilt at the horrible things he can remember doing but can't remember why he did. It's hard to decide whether you want to punch him or give him a hug.

I was fully backing the Diagram from Book 2 onward and this doesn't jive at all with the confrontation between Taravangian and Odium. It's clear to me he is playing Odium, his "Transcendent Self" having foreseen their meeting. A part of the Diagram Odium cannot see mentions Renarin and Taravangian thanks his past genius self. Working with Odium is clearly a ploy of some kind and he is not just happily bowing to him.

That's my reading of it anyway....

rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#2458: Jul 14th 2018 at 7:19:33 PM

Not happily, certainly, but he is bowing. Even if Maximum Intelligent Asshole knew things that Odium doesn't (and thematically speaking, I must say I'd be quite surprised if in this series incredible intelligence coupled with equally incredible Lack of Empathy was very beneficial to anyone in the long run), during the meeting Taravangian's narration makes it clear that in that moment he's accepting that selling out the world to save one city is the least terrible option he has.

The words started to fade all around them. Leaving him alone. Alone and stupid. He blinked tears from the corners of his eyes. “Kharbranth,” he said. “Preserve only Kharbranth. You may destroy all other nations. Just leave my city. It is what I beg of you.”

The world was lost, humankind doomed.

They had planned to protect so much more. But … he saw now how little they knew. One city before the storms. One land protected, even if the rest had to be sacrificed.

These are not the thoughts of a man who is playing anyone.

Edited by rikalous on Jul 14th 2018 at 7:21:15 AM

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#2459: Jul 14th 2018 at 7:47:34 PM

What about the part where he sees Renarin's name though and hen thanks his past self?

There's a big emphasis in the series on how humans can make and break oaths. Beings like Odium cannot. Taravangian can make his pact with Odium then betray it to defeat him.

Also, other questions. Odium is supposed to be the guy all the weird nonsensical interludes mention, right? He wasn't always this all powerful god but was some dude once upon a time, right? Is that what Wit is as well? Or is Wit Odium's....direct underling like the Nightwatcher is to Cultivation and the Stormfatehr is to Honor?

Durazno Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#2460: Jul 14th 2018 at 7:51:49 PM

Depending on where you're at in your Cosmere reading, this may be a spoiler, or it may not. Here's who Wit is, as far as we know.

Wit is a worldhopper who we also know as Hoid, among a few other names, who has put in minor appearances in other Brandon Sanderson fantasy novels. He's trying to gather forces from the broader Cosmere against Odium, but as we can see in epigraphs, he is not having much luck. Most people beyond Roshar think that Odium is contained there, and, well, sucks to be Rosharan. Others would like to help, but are less confident.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#2461: Jul 14th 2018 at 7:57:15 PM

I've only read Mistborn and TSA. There's an evil presence gagthering in Mistborn but I dunno if that has any relation to anything else.

Thank you for the response.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#2462: Jul 14th 2018 at 7:58:40 PM

And as I said up above (referencing the reread), the Unmade are collectively Odium's "godspren." Honor only made one super-spren (the Stormfather), Cultivation only made one super-spren (the Nightwatcher), but Odium made nine.

rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#2463: Jul 14th 2018 at 9:33:51 PM

[up][up][up][up]Trying to avoid spoilers or a deep dive into Cosmere metaphysics, Odium was indeed once just some dude. Mentally speaking, he's still that dude, albeit heavily influenced by the embodiment of hatred that empowers him. Meaning that he's as free to break whatever oaths he pleases as the next guy, so long as that oath-breaking doesn't go against his nature as Odium.

Back on Taravangian, whatever writing on the wall he saw, it wasn't enough to prevent him from thinking later in that same scene that humanity is doomed and he'll have to sacrifice the non-Kharbranth parts of the world to save what little he can. He gets enough information to talk Odium into making a deal, sure, but if the end of that section isn't him taking a bad deal because all the other options he sees are worse then he's managed to mislead in his internal narration, which is quite a trick. (Granted, Sanderson is awful tricksy like that.)

But anyway, for narrative reasons I don't expect Big T to be successfully pulling a long con. Break away from Odium at a critical point, maybe, but not because everything was going according to keikaku. Sympathetic as he is, and I do quite like the guy, he's a consequentialist murderer in a setting where the heroes get superpowers by following deontological ethics. So he's got to fight against what look to be the themes of the story to get any kind of ultimate triumph.

Durazno Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#2464: Jul 14th 2018 at 10:02:54 PM

The only way he could be fooling the internal narration is if he were essentially acting as the pawn of himself on a smarter day. It doesn't seem likely to me, but it is at least possible.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#2465: Jul 14th 2018 at 10:35:10 PM

Well I mean, he doesn't understand his smarter self. He is just along for the ride. All the dumb Taravangian (I wonder where the Big T nickname came from? It seems popular) knows is to follow the lead of his Smartest Self.

And true enough [up][up] that he has almost zero chance. I'm aware of this for the reasons you said so well. But, well, what about all the people cheering for Stannis to win the Game of Thrones? Or, hell, all the other House supporters who back somebody be;sides Stark and Targaryen? The hopelessness of their....hopes is pretty evident but they trudge on. I think Taravangian is the single most interesting character in the series along with Dalinar so I can't help but support him.

Also I'm usuallya tad obsessed with Lawful Neutral types but I fucking hate the m in this setting. I felt so sorry for that old man who made the shoes for poor children. This is what deontological ethics gets you, bastards like that Herald and his murderers.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jul 14th 2018 at 10:39:03 AM

rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#2466: Jul 14th 2018 at 11:22:05 PM

If you wanna talk about backing the underdog, I'm rooting for the commoners of Westeros to rise up and cast down on the would-be kings who keep getting them killed in dickwaving wars to decide which asshole has the privilege of oppressing them. The people united will not be divided!

On the ethics thing, deontological ethics also get you that old man and his free shoes for urchins, so your condemnation moves me not.

RavenWilder Raven Wilder Since: Apr, 2009
Raven Wilder
#2467: Jul 15th 2018 at 12:46:38 AM

I'd just like to point out, Taravangian's original plan was to pull an Exact Words double cross on Odium: get Odium to agree to spare Tarvangian's kingdom from the Desolation, then conquer all of Roshar, making it all his kingdom, thus saving the world. Odium, of course, sees through this Loophole Abuse and shuts it down, but it looks like Taravangian's smartest self foresaw even that, and who knows what plans-within-plans-within-plans he has.

We see that Odium can see and understand much more of what's going on than even smartest day Taravangian. However, he does so using magical abilities that feed him extra knowledge, and it seems that certain things or people (like Renarin) are blind spots for that power. Taravangian, however, doesn't have any extra senses or sources of information like Odium has, just an insanely increased ability to make deductions based on the information he does have, which might not be affected by the same sorts of blind spots.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#2468: Jul 15th 2018 at 1:55:00 AM

Another thing I was wondering - there are really supposed to be ten of these? Is he going to do a Mistborn-like timeskip? I just don't see how you can get 7 more novels out of this current conflict and batch of characters. There was a lot revealed and explained in Oathbringer, far more than I expected.

32ndfreeze from Australia Since: Mar, 2012
#2469: Jul 15th 2018 at 2:47:45 AM

The Stormlight Archive is meant to be divided into two five book sequences.

With IIRC a 10 year timeskip between them, but don't quote me on that part.

Presumably it could be possible Odium won't be the Big Bad of the second half.

"But if that happened, Melia might actually be happy. We can't have that." - Handsome Rob
SCMof2814 Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: I don't mind being locked in this eternal maze!
#2470: Jul 15th 2018 at 4:50:12 PM

Every new book I keep hoping we see a worldhopper besides Hoid use foreign investiture. Even in the last book, with an Awakener, I get disappointed, with all the nice stuff happening offscreen!!!!!

Durazno Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#2471: Jul 15th 2018 at 4:52:47 PM

I think part of the reason that it hasn't happened is that Sanderson is concerned that people who haven't read Warbreaker might confuse Awakening for another Surge. That's why he gave us enough clues to know what she was doing without having it happen "onscreen."

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#2472: Jul 15th 2018 at 4:54:30 PM

Also remember that Stormlight isn't actually the major crossover. So there's not much reason to have more than a handful of worldhoppers. Awakeners are the exception because Warbreaker was written to give those people a place to be from.

RavenWilder Raven Wilder Since: Apr, 2009
Raven Wilder
#2473: Jul 15th 2018 at 7:55:18 PM

We do see someone using off-world Investiture in Oathbringer, provided you count Nightblood as being a someone rather than a something.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
32ndfreeze from Australia Since: Mar, 2012
#2474: Jul 15th 2018 at 8:11:28 PM

I also am strongly of the opinion there's going be be several people or bits of magic the will turn out to be obvious in retrospect because we've yet to see the worlds/magic systems they come from.

"But if that happened, Melia might actually be happy. We can't have that." - Handsome Rob
SCMof2814 Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: I don't mind being locked in this eternal maze!
#2475: Jul 15th 2018 at 8:14:50 PM

[up][up]I don't really count that, since everyone thinks he's a Shardblade, and it technically IS an attempt to make a Shardblade.

Gotta wonder, does Nightblood have his own spren somewhere in the Cognitive realm, or is it all in the Physical?

Edited by SCMof2814 on Jul 15th 2018 at 11:14:34 PM


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