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Rename: Award Bait Song

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Prfnoff Since: Jan, 2001
#1: Jan 6th 2010 at 7:49:47 PM

Award-Bait Song is mostly OK as a trope. The title, however, must be changed. It refers to a specific type of song, and not Oscar®-nominated or Oscar®©™-winning songs in general. I'm getting tired of removing examples of Movie Bonus Songs, and there are several examples which were ineligible for awards anyway.

I'll propose Big Damn Ballad, but probably a better title could be suggested.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#2: Jan 6th 2010 at 8:15:59 PM

Gah. It needs a whole rewrite. Saying that it must be in the style of Bronze Age Disney end credits songs, and whether or not it's actually an Award Bait Song is irrelevant is just simply wrong. "Award Bait" is a relatively common term for "something that is just oozing with all the things that make Awards voters orgasm". And using that term for something so much narrower is just... no.

edited 11th Jan '10 11:52:55 AM by Madrugada

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#4: Jan 6th 2010 at 8:19:24 PM

As narrowly as it's defined, even that's to broad. Disney Style Ballad maybe.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#5: Jan 6th 2010 at 9:55:55 PM

Point of reference: It should be telling that bronze-age Disney has been frequently nominated (and won a good percent of the time) for either Best Song or Best Score. But the article points out that Disney doesn't have a stranglehold on Award Bait Songs either. Keep the name, polish up the description: put the trait last front and center, shorten the Disney stuff into a demonstration of the thesis with the full examples in the example section proper.

SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Jan 7th 2010 at 6:02:44 AM

From the point of creation:

NOTE: The "Oscar-Baiting" part isn't the important part, nor is the "Disney" part or "End Credits" part. The important part is that the song is in the style of the kind of songs heard over the end credits of Bronze-Age Disney movies that won loads and loads of Oscars.

jfpbookworm Since: Jan, 2001
#7: Jan 7th 2010 at 6:58:23 AM

If it's just bronze-age Disney, rename the trope.

If it's all "award bait" songs, rewrite the description to remove that paragraph about how they must be Disneyesque (which, honestly, has a whiff of Fan Myopia to me). Not all movie songs (not even all award-winning movie songs) are Award Bait Songs, true, but not all Award Bait Songs are in that Disney style.

SomeGuy Some Guy from totally uncool town Since: Jan, 2001
Some Guy
#8: Jan 11th 2010 at 11:26:13 AM

I nuked all the narrowly defined stuff. Considering how broadly the term was used in related links, I don't think we lost much.

See you in the discussion pages.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#9: Jan 11th 2010 at 11:43:55 AM

It was replaced. Because you didn't give an edit reason. I've PM'd the person who put it back.

And when did we stop putting "This trope is under discussion for renaming" tags on the page until we're almost ready to make the change?

edited 11th Jan '10 11:48:39 AM by Madrugada

FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#10: Jan 11th 2010 at 11:59:30 AM

I've been invited to join this discussion, as it were. As someone who did not create this page, but contributed a significant portion to its workings (including helping to nail down the distinct traits of this type of song when the page was in YKTTW), here's my take on things...

As it currently stands, I think the page could, possibly, use a split. As it was initially concieved, the page was specifically about that very distinct, Disneyesque pop ballad that rose to popularity in the 80's and 90's—the slow-going, synth-sparkly, Power of Love-based one. Which is not to say that all the examples of that WOULD be animated movies. See "I Am The Wind", from Castlevania, or "Small of Two Pieces," from Xenogears, which are from video games. And lest we forget "My Heart Will Go On." The style was the most important part.

People started adding songs in different styles, though. Which definitely do have something going on. Like "I'm Still Here" from Treasure Planet. Stylistically, it doesn't fit the criteria. But it still has a distinct importance in the film. So what is it? It's not a warbly, sparkly love ballad, but it's still something.

Since a lot of the examples do include musical links, I'm thinking we should check them out. Leave the ones that are most stylistically fitting, and figure out what the non-stylistic examples represent as a trope, if anything, and fit them somewhere.

Admittedly, there are some songs that aren't obvious in where they fit. Like "Down to Earth" from WALL-E—I'm honestly not sure if it fits or not. But that's why you move examples to the discussion page—so they can be easily assessed.

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
SomeGuy Some Guy from totally uncool town Since: Jan, 2001
Some Guy
#11: Jan 11th 2010 at 12:09:37 PM

Dangit. I should have made a resolution to give edit reasons. I keep forgetting about other people.

I think we just forgot to put the tags up.

edited 11th Jan '10 12:09:54 PM by SomeGuy

See you in the discussion pages.
FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#12: Jan 11th 2010 at 12:25:05 PM

And now, the Freezair is Insane Board (F.I.B) presents: Freezair Attempts To Go Through Every Song On The List And Determine Its Award Bait Status (FAT GTES OTLA DIABS.)

First section: Anime.

  • Princess Mononoke: No link. Assess later.
  • "To Know The Unknown:" Abstract constructs not directly addressed in movie, pop ballad, end credits, synth sparkle. Oh yeah. No other songs have links; one did, but it was broken. Will check out later.
  • "And Forever:" Pop ballad, love duet, feel-good, builds. No sparkle, but it's a go.
  • "Call Me:" Not really poppy; more rock-ish or alternative. Very melancholy, unlike most other examples. Doesn't fit.
  • "Half Pain:" It's a ballad, but it's very sad, and it's not really the right kind of ballad. Pretty, but not quite right. More Santana than Peabo Bryson.
  • "Phoenix:" Broken link.
  • "Watch the Moonrise:" More energetic than usual, but: Variant on synth sparkle, Power of Friendship, gets more triumphant. Stylistically, I'm not super certain, but I give it a soft fits. (I.E.—an imperfect match, but Tropes Are Flexible.)
  • "Aozora:" Hmm. I don't speak Japanese, so I don't know if it's thematically fitting, but musically, it does AWB to a tee. Definite fit. (Also: Ooooh, pretty music.)
  • "Tune the Rainbow:" Dead link. Will have to dig it up later.

edited 11th Jan '10 12:25:39 PM by FreezairForALimitedTime

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#13: Jan 11th 2010 at 12:35:49 PM

Here's the one from Princess Mononoke. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the others.

Edit: Here's a version with English lyrics.

edited 11th Jan '10 12:39:07 PM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#14: Jan 11th 2010 at 12:37:45 PM

Hi!

For me the problem is the name. It's simply too sweeping for the definition it's attached to. On that count, I'd be equally happy if we redefine it to match the name or rename it to match the definition. However, we should have something for this type of song, so renaming the existing page makes more sense than starting from scratch on it.

One other thing. I don't see why that whole long list of Disney songs is in the definition instead of the examples.

edited 11th Jan '10 12:41:02 PM by Madrugada

Cidolfas Since: Jan, 2001
#15: Jan 11th 2010 at 1:33:15 PM

Aozora always drives me nuts because I know, know that I've heard the full tune somewhere else, both played as a piano piece and as a vocal song.

FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#16: Jan 11th 2010 at 1:45:37 PM

@Mononoke: Hmm... it's a bit too sorrowful, I think, and not enough of a pop ballad... thing.

@examples: I don't think the Disney list needs to be as long, but I like it there. Describing the traits of the song is all well and good, but I think they, here, serve the same purpose that a picture does on other trope pages: They make it instantly clear what the trope's about, or are suppose to.

As for a rename: I don't think it absolutely needs one, but if the greater tropulation called for one, I'd go quietly.

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#17: Jan 11th 2010 at 1:50:56 PM

Analogy for why I think the name needs to be changed: it's about the equivalent of having a page named "Hit Single" that is defined as "a song released by a group (not an individual), that reached Number 1 on the Billboard Country charts for at least two weeks." While those songs are part of the class of Hit Singles, they're far from the only members of the class.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#18: Jan 11th 2010 at 5:01:02 PM

I'm very sure the Mononoke-Hime song doesn't fit the 'award bait' style - it's low key, mostly a capella, very short and downbeat. Mind you, Joe Hisaishi's soundtracks could totaly be Award Bait if the award we're talking about is Best Original Score if Joe Hisaishi weren't in Japan - he's easily up with John Williams, James Horner, et. al. But that's not the trope we're dealing with.

I don't know most of the rest of those songs but I know one that's a dead ringer: "Alchemy of Love" from the first Tenchi Muyo movie. Pop love balad, tons of sparkle synth, very typical 80s sound.

TragicTDragon She's different. from Bawstin Since: Jan, 2001
She's different.
#19: Mar 31st 2010 at 11:13:25 PM

OK, person who proposed and launched this trope here.

I've kept quiet about this but it's been a bit of a thorn in my side, so I'm glad I get to vent.

First off, I'm glad somebody previously posted the oldest line in the description: "The "Oscar-Baiting" part isn't the important part, nor is the "Disney" part or "End Credits" part. The important part is that the song is in the style of the kind of song heard over the end credits of Bronze-Age Disney movies that won loads and loads of Oscars."

This Trope is referring to a very specific kind of movie song. I launched it after marathoning the Bronze Age Disney movies and then noticing that nearly every movie around the same time had a power ballad in almost the exact same style. It has since been Spammed with examples that don’t fit because people can’t be arsed to read the f-in’ description. Simply put: "I See You" is an example (it's practically a throwback to this kind of song). "I'm Still Here" is not an example as it sounds abso-f**king-lutely nothing like the kinds of songs the Trope is supposed to refer to.

We already have Breakout Pop Hit (which is also confusing as it's specifically about movie music yet has a ridiculously generic name; how about Wait, That Song Is From A Movie? tongue ). Should we make another trope for general end-credit songs?

edited 31st Mar '10 11:17:08 PM by TragicTDragon

DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#20: Apr 1st 2010 at 7:42:08 AM

What is a proper example? That would help in coming up with a more accurate name.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#21: Apr 1st 2010 at 11:51:52 AM

The very opening part of the article lists a whole bunch. But if you want one not from the opening, speaking of dragons and dragon-like entities, have a listen at this or this.

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#22: Apr 1st 2010 at 12:12:25 PM

The article was fine, just that I knew what were the correct examples. So this is a slow, ballad remix at the end credits?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#23: Apr 2nd 2010 at 9:53:05 AM

Not if you include the end credit songs that didn't actually appear otherwise in the movie.

If the Oscar, Disney or end credit bits aren't the important parts, what about Sappy Sparkle Movie Ballad?

edited 2nd Apr '10 9:58:57 AM by Elle

DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#24: Apr 2nd 2010 at 10:03:25 AM

Slow Sappy Movie Ballad?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Total posts: 47
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