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What types?: Anti Hero

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#1: Oct 24th 2010 at 11:51:01 AM

Looking through the examples on Anti-Hero, it seems that a number of them are following a description of the trope that has since been obsoleted: something about varying "types" of Anti-Hero, going up to at least Type V. The description does not describe (or no longer describes) these types. This remnant of an older version of the page is also on other potholes for the trope: for example, the character page for American Dad, which lists Stan as a "Type V" Anti-Hero with no other explanation.

Either the references to the "types" need to be cleaned up, or the page needs to be rewritten to have the "types" again. Not sure which one is more appropriate.

I have a message from another time...
Scisless What's That Zach? from The End of Time Since: Apr, 2009
What's That Zach?
#2: Oct 24th 2010 at 11:53:12 AM

It's because the list is only on Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes. Hm, perhaps we should merge them or make the links more clearer?

edited 24th Oct '10 11:53:25 AM by Scisless

Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#3: Oct 24th 2010 at 11:56:06 AM

It's a reference to the Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes.tongue

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
NorthernDruid Since: Jan, 2010
#4: Nov 20th 2010 at 4:23:47 AM

At the very least there should be a link to the Sliding Scale explaining that it's where you find the "types"

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#5: Nov 20th 2010 at 9:51:22 AM

If both are about anti-heroes then maybe they should be merged.

Though frankly I am not sure if I would consider the first two types anti-heroes in the first place, and I REALLY doubt that the second type would be.

edited 20th Nov '10 9:52:37 AM by neoYTPism

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#6: Nov 20th 2010 at 10:00:01 AM

Actually, Type I, 'Anti-Hero as loser', is quite a commonly-used definition of the anti-hero.

An anti-hero is a hero lacking in traditionally heroic traits. The missing elements can be things other than morality.

edited 20th Nov '10 10:00:12 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#7: Nov 20th 2010 at 10:24:02 AM

I thought it meant heroic role but a not-necessarily-heroic character.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#8: Nov 20th 2010 at 10:25:49 AM

Which is what I just said. It's simply that 'not-necessarily-heroic' can mean other things apart from 'of questionable morality'.

What's precedent ever done for us?
melloncollie Since: Feb, 2012
#9: Nov 20th 2010 at 11:56:14 AM

In ye olde days to be a "hero" usually required some sort of nobility and traits such as courage, strength, honor, piety, that sort of stuff. The "hero" in "antihero" refers to that definition, I think. A loser probably wouldn't have those things.

joerc45 from Fortress of Solitude Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#10: Nov 20th 2010 at 12:15:34 PM

[up] Which is why the Type I Anti Hero is the traditional Anti Hero.

Basically, the further down the scale a character is, the less heroically inclined and the more morally ambiguous he/she will be. This also affects how much more difficult the character's development will be in terms of gaining heroic qualities. It is quite common for a Type I or II to go in a more heroic direction {though it's also quite common for them to Jump Off The Slippery Slope and end up a Type IV or V, or even a Villain Protagonist}, while a Type III, IV, or V usually move up on the scale. Another factor to take into account is the mood of the story. Is it a story where Wide Eyed Idealists prosper and save the world, or are simply a burden on the more seasoned cynic who believes in a dog-eat-dog world where Might Makes Right?

edited 20th Nov '10 4:40:06 PM by joerc45

Teacher's pet.: Pillars of Moral Character.
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#11: Nov 20th 2010 at 12:21:22 PM

"The term is sometimes used more loosely. See Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes for the possibilities."

The above line exists in the Anti-Hero article. Why is there any confusion or change needed?

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#12: Nov 20th 2010 at 12:25:02 PM

"Basically, the further down the scale a character is, the less heroically inclined and morally ambiguous he/she will be." - joerc

I do not regard a Knight in Sour Armor as being more ambiguous morally than the 1st type... or at least the more cowardly kinds of the 1st type. (Commissioner Gordon from The Dark Knight Saga comes to mind as a Knight in Sour Armor who exhibits a LOT of courage.)

joerc45 from Fortress of Solitude Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#13: Nov 20th 2010 at 12:29:12 PM

[up] Yes, but Types IV or V typically fall under a neutral/evil alignment, and/or Lawful Selfish, Selfish Good, and although Types II and III are usually good-aligned, they have much more distinguishable personality flaws, i.e. Mr. Vice Guy, and usually have no compunctions against morally questionable actions {i.e. murder, theft, etc}, which are usually frowned upon as being less than heroic. Another thing to point out is that they are not necessarily in direct correlation {it's not always the same but more}, a Type V anti-hero can be Affably Evil in sharp contrast to it's Type III Good Is Not Nice counterpart.

edited 20th Nov '10 4:39:30 PM by joerc45

Teacher's pet.: Pillars of Moral Character.
Tyoria Since: Jul, 2009
#14: Nov 20th 2010 at 12:37:37 PM

I've always seen it that the "sliding" part of the morality scale doesn't kick in until type 2.

HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#15: Nov 22nd 2010 at 12:14:20 PM

When I saw the TRS flag on the page I thought some idiot wanted to change the name. Ahem. The types should be restored to the page because that's less work than cleaning up not only the page itself but all the wicks (e.g., Kill Bill) that refer to a "Type $N Anti-Hero." Or at least a sentence to the effect of "for the various 'types' of Anti-Hero, see Sliding Scale Of Anti Heros."

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#16: Nov 22nd 2010 at 12:17:40 PM

I think we should keep the articles separate - they cover some very diverse concepts.

"For other commonly-used types of Anti-Hero, see the Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes" would probably be a perfectly fine compromise.

edited 22nd Nov '10 12:20:55 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
ExpiryBot Since: Dec, 1969
#17: Jan 12th 2011 at 11:04:08 AM

This thread expired after 60 days of inactivity.

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