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How broad is Gay Panic?

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Storygirl000 The Scarlet Queen from Somewhere in the Multiverse (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
The Scarlet Queen
#1: Dec 30th 2024 at 6:50:57 PM

So I found out about the controversy surrounding Win or Lose being unable to feature a trans character and decided to hop onto the series' trope page. I ended up finding the controversy mentioned under Gay Panic on the Trivia page, and after a brief glimpse at the main page, I decided I wanted to crosswick it (as well as mention a similar incident that happened with Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur (2023)).

Then I fully read the trope description and discovered that, per the trope's current description, it only applies to depictions of same-sex relationships being banned. While I'm sure Disney execs blocking trans characters from being depicted onscreen would qualify, there's no mention of anything related to trans characters on the page.

So now I'm wondering: does the trope apply to trans characters getting blocked by the Moral Guardians as much as gay/bi characters? And if not, should it be expanded to included them (especially since, sadly, I don't think these have been or will be the only examples of this happening)?

Aquillion Since: Jan, 2001
#2: Jan 2nd 2025 at 6:51:44 AM

I think that LGBT panic is probably all the same trope, but it's not currently covered by it and would probably require a tweak and perhaps even a name change if that's the direction we want to go. Adding to that is the issue that Gay Panic is an existing name with existing meaning.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#3: Jan 3rd 2025 at 2:10:08 AM

I think we need a new trope for this (Trans Panic), unlike other people I am not convinced that the various forms of bigotry against LGBT+ people are interchangeable. The whole sports thing is unique to transgender people, for example.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
number9robotic (Experienced Trainee)
#4: Jan 3rd 2025 at 9:19:02 AM

[up] Pretty sure there are still people who assume Trans Equals Gay and just oppose queer people as a broad principle (especially since stuff like Gay Panic is driven not by creators, but by the opposition/opinions of audiences who are not beholden to knowing the difference this day and age). I've never heard of cases where people making exclusionary stinks on the presence of trans characters/creators for being trans also didn't have troubling opinions on non-heterosexuals either, and vice versa.

Edited by number9robotic on Jan 3rd 2025 at 9:28:21 AM

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Storygirl000 The Scarlet Queen from Somewhere in the Multiverse (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
The Scarlet Queen
#5: Jan 3rd 2025 at 10:57:26 AM

Yeah, that's why I figured that anti-trans panic could be covered under the same trope. Well, that and I don't have enough examples to justify proposing a brand new trope — just the two I already mentioned.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#6: Jan 3rd 2025 at 12:42:33 PM

I've seen plenty of people whining about the existence of transgender people with little or nothing to say about gay/lesbian/bi et cetera, though. ^That's what we have TLP for.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
number9robotic (Experienced Trainee)
#7: Jan 3rd 2025 at 1:10:55 PM

[up]That doesn't strike to me as saying that transphobia being mutually exclusive from non-heterophobia or vice versa is more of a thing than people being generally queerphobic, which is the only basis that I would see a separate trope for "Trans Panic" being necessary.

Although actually, now that I look at the trope and the point raised in Discussion, I do have to ask: what actually is the difference between this and Get Back in the Closet beyond one being Trivia and the other not? Not only does it also have a similar issue of only mentioning sexuality as a point of brouhaha from Moral Guardians in the description (though some entries do list issues of gender/physical sex also being a target) but what exactly is it covering beyond "people got mad, this led to censorship"?

Frankly, I think "Get Back in the Closet" might be a better title for this phenomenon as a general manifestation of queerphobia given that not only is it not explicitly just about "gay" representation, but also "gay panic" is a term used in legal jargon (which the description mentions is not meant to be confused with).

Edited by number9robotic on Jan 3rd 2025 at 1:17:48 AM

Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8: Jan 3rd 2025 at 4:26:12 PM

[up][tup] to your last paragraph. I find this wiki's use of Gay Panic pretty confusing, since I would have assumed it meant the same as the pre-existing phrase.

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#9: Jan 3rd 2025 at 10:39:13 PM

I would point out in argument against Sep's point that the people IRL who are raising trans panics now are largely the same ones who were raising gay panics before. It's part and parcel of the same heteronormative culture, and that's how it's reflected in fiction in my experience. (With the caveat that nowadays you're more likely to have a queerphobe falsely claim that they're TOTALLY FINE with gay people but trans is a bridge too far, probably because gay people are now broadly so accepted they've realized they'll invariably get “The Reason You Suck” Speech if they say anything like what they actually think.)

So yes, I think that Tropes Are Flexible and that Gay Panic can definitely cover Trans Panic: we don't need a second trope for it.

Edited by StarSword on Jan 3rd 2025 at 1:41:53 PM

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guardianofthepark Since: Jun, 2024
#10: Jan 4th 2025 at 12:58:37 AM

[up]I mean, yeah most transphobes are also homophobic, but not all of them. Many TERFS defend Gay rights or are gay themselves, but are vicious against Trans rights.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#11: Jan 4th 2025 at 1:29:22 AM

I am minded to agree that Get Back in the Closet is probably a better name for the concept. Perhaps a merge is in order, or something to distinguish them. I know that "gay panic" is a legal concept, but is it something that is used in stories.

^Further on that, I dunno what J.K.Rowling's views are on gay/lesbian/bi people, but whatever they are they are certainly not nearly as vocal or prominent as her views on transgender people. And the excuses tend to be different too.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Storygirl000 The Scarlet Queen from Somewhere in the Multiverse (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
The Scarlet Queen
#12: Jan 4th 2025 at 6:57:56 AM

I'd like to reiterate for those arguing that it should be split into a separate trope — I don't have enough examples to justify going to TLP. Not to mention, two of the three examples I do have are from Disney, who have been pulling this trope with gay characters about as much as they have with trans characters, so the whole "doesn't care about gay people but is vehemently against trans people" argument doesn't really apply. As such, it'd be easier to just put them under the same trope and expand the definition to include trans characters.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#13: Jan 4th 2025 at 7:12:24 AM

See, I don't think that this means they are the same trope. It means that we need to look for more examples. Generally, I wouldn't base they-are-the-same judgments on just one person or one company, it's easy to unintentionally cherrypick or for the sample to be unrepresentative.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Aquillion Since: Jan, 2001
#14: Jan 8th 2025 at 6:29:55 AM

But if we're talking about it as a trope, the real question is whether it's handled the same way. And I think it does - it's built out of the same "they're all predators", "they're going to convert our children", "won't someone THINK of the children!?" subtropes and so on.

That is to say that, regardless of whether they're different sociological things in real life, and regardless of whether there are distinctions between them as groups, when these things get discussed, they're mostly handled the same way, as one broad trope. When eg. a writer wants to write An Aesop about not fearing gay people or trans people, they're almost always going to use the exact same beats, exact same antagonists, and so on.

Notably, as far as "the exact same entagonists" goes - the distinctions people make between TERFs and homophobes just aren't... a thing, in fiction. Virtually no fiction even acknowledges that TERFs exist as a distinct group; it's all just part of one broad backlash.

As a result, I don't think that there's really separate tropes for "backlash against gay people" and "backlash against trans people"; if we tried to separate them we'd end up with two pages with nearly identical descriptions and example lists that heavily overlap - it'd end up looking as if we'd created separate tropes for "Gay Panic about white gay people" and "Gay Panic about black gay people." Are there some differences? Yeah, but it's still the same basic trope, I think.

Edited by Aquillion on Jan 8th 2025 at 2:15:17 AM

DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
guardianofthepark Since: Jun, 2024
#16: Jan 8th 2025 at 2:58:23 PM

We are probably gonna see more "Evil TERF" characters in fiction in the future, but for now the difference simply doesn't exist.

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