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Was my writing biased?

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deerhornsaresopretty Since: Jun, 2023
#1: Dec 14th 2024 at 7:56:21 AM

Hello, I'm a troper who recently launched a new trope recently, Conservative Dad, Liberal Mom.

Before publishing it, I ran it through the TLP and wanted to collect opinions on the description as I specifically wanted it to be unbiased and fair to both sides.

Well, someone removed large chunks of the description and accused the article of being "biased", as well as an edit justification that reads like a personal attack.

The edit reason: "The language used to describe this trope was positive toward liberal moms and negative toward conservative dads, which is divisive. The less said, the better. This trope shouldn't be on this site at all because it reads like someone who's upset over results of the recent US election wrote. Divisive language was deleted."

1) The language used to describe this trope was positive toward liberal moms and negative toward conservative dads, which is divisive. - the description stated that conservative dads believe that the youth need guidance and support. How is that "negative"? If it was implying they were bigoted it would be one thing but it's not. In sitcoms like All in the Family, Archie Bunker is a conservative Standard '50s Father but also a loving and caring dad, for example. I'm not saying that every conservative father is like this, but this is the most common portrayal in media.

2) This trope shouldn't be on this site at all - why not? If tropes such as Blonde Republican Sex Kitten, Fox News Liberal, Strawman News Media, Black Republican, and Gay Conservative are allowed, why is this any different? Besides, "contrast" tropes like Red Oni, Blue Oni are common all over TV Tropes.

3) because it reads like someone who's upset over results of the recent US election wrote - wow. I'm not even American LOL. Just because I lean slightly left it doesn't mean I'm "upset" over conservatives. I consider myself politically homeless tbh. I agree with the right sometimes and I would be willing to vote for a right-leaning candidate if they had policies I agree with. I also have a friend group that's a mix between liberals, conservatives, libertarians and socialists, so I'm always exposed to new perspectives and I don't judge people based on politics unless they're outright bigots/denialists.

I don't like Donald Trump but I don't hate him either. Same for Kamala Harris. I am not trying to push any political agenda.

If my writings were truly biased, then I am sorry and agree a rewrite is in order. But removing large chunks of text that contextualize the trope with an edit reason that is short and has an unnecessary (and blatantly wrong) comment on my politics is not the right way. The "discussion" button is for that.

I don't think this needs more time in the TLP, but perhaps a better written description.

Eggy0 Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her) (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her)
#2: Dec 14th 2024 at 8:33:18 AM

Based on a few looks, it sounds a lot like they are the problem and not your description; they did a large unilateral description change which should've been discussed either in TLP, the TLP crash rescue thread or even the Trope Description Improvement Drive, and the edit reason is borderline hostile. If they had an issue with the trope, they ideally should've taken it to the TLP draft or an appropriate topic instead of making such a large edit of their own accord and leaving an accusation in the edit reason.

deerhornsaresopretty Since: Jun, 2023
#3: Dec 14th 2024 at 8:47:53 AM

Thanks, I thought it was just me.

In the TLP, we actually did discuss this issue and I reworked the description to be fair to both sides. The original description was originally a lot shorter.

I also based it off media that portray conservative dads positively (dom coms). I know that page has some unflattering examples (like the New Norm/Mr. Birchum) but those are straw characters. They don't accurately portray this trope.

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#4: Dec 14th 2024 at 8:54:56 AM

Adding on to Eggy’s comment, I’d recommend an ATT report of the user who did this — this seems blatantly inappropriate. Might also be worth checking the troper in question for an agenda — edits like this tend to come in bunches.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Dec 14th 2024 at 11:55:42 AM

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Eggy0 Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her) (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her)
#5: Dec 14th 2024 at 9:00:03 AM

If the description was already discussed, reworked and agreed on in the draft prior to launching, then the edit they made was likely not necessary to begin with, plus it just came out of TLP and they had the opportunity to bring it up before launching. And even if there was an issue, as I mentioned, they still jumped the gun and removed enough content that I think it effectively boils down to unilaterally tampering with the definition (this is something that requires consensus) when it should've been talked about first.

[up] Agreed. This should be reported on ATT.

Edited by Eggy0 on Dec 14th 2024 at 6:01:53 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#6: Dec 14th 2024 at 9:25:08 AM

Oh, that troper. I was looking into them last night, they have other weird, biased edits and are otherwise just nattering and stuff. Worth a report and a revert for sure.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Eggy0 Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her) (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her)
#7: Dec 14th 2024 at 9:27:23 AM

I'll go ahead and make the report in fact — I had another look and on the same page they made this edit before altering the description. It was quickly removed for being flame bait.

deerhornsaresopretty Since: Jun, 2023
#8: Dec 14th 2024 at 9:35:45 AM

> These mixed marriages may be Played for Laughs, but in Real Life, they often fail because the hard-working, conservative man gets tired of his bitchy, man-bashing, loudmouth liberal wife and decides that conservative women are much more loving, supportive and attractive.

Holy crap.....

deerhornsaresopretty Since: Jun, 2023
#9: Dec 14th 2024 at 9:36:51 AM

Should someone invite them to this thread for discussion?

Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#10: Dec 14th 2024 at 10:21:34 AM

Reverted the page.

e: [up] No need.

Edited by Tabs on Dec 14th 2024 at 10:22:04 AM

Puma Since: Mar, 2023
#11: Dec 14th 2024 at 1:26:13 PM

I apologize for the inappropriate language and the large edits and for saying the trope creator was upset about the outcome of the recent U.S. elections. I still think the writing was biased. But I don't think you are interested in exactly why I feel that way.

GastonRabbit MOD C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#12: Dec 15th 2024 at 1:31:08 AM

The user responsible for that vandalism has been suspended from the wiki, so this thread is unnecessary, especially since questions about specific edits go on Ask The Tropers and not Trope Talk. Locking.

Update: See the post directly below this one.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 16th 2024 at 11:07:01 AM

I got a rock for Halloween.
GastonRabbit MOD C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#13: Dec 16th 2024 at 11:53:14 AM

Unlocked the thread after mod discussion since it was determined that this thread is still about the trope and thus within the scope of Trope Talk.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 16th 2024 at 3:32:05 AM

I got a rock for Halloween.
BraveOcelot Since: Sep, 2018
#14: Dec 16th 2024 at 3:16:38 PM

Mmkay. I've read through the description on Conservative Dad, Liberal Mom, and I'm seeing no divisive or biased writing. It looks very well-written to me. I can't even identify what might have specifically set off the offending troper here. From my perspective as someone who leans conservative, you're in the clear.

Eggy0 Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her) (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her)
#15: Dec 16th 2024 at 11:11:27 PM

[up] What set them off was the supposed bias against a commonly bashed political ideologynote , and the idea that it's a political trope in general. I.e. they didn't agree and went off to alter it to fit their views.

I'd like to chime in and say again that I see no issues — and I'm sure they would've cropped up by now either way, before the unilateral change happened.

Adept MOD (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#16: Dec 17th 2024 at 12:43:47 AM

FWIW, the troper who made those unilateral changes has been bounced.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 21st 2024 at 10:18:52 AM

MissConduct (Septatroper)
#17: Dec 25th 2024 at 3:02:22 PM

To offer some slight suggestions, I would at least say that the crazy guy wasn't wrong when he said that marriages across the political aisle (especially when they're as extreme as the ones in fiction) don't tend to last, although, you know, it needs to be phrased better. As well, the fourth paragraph spends a good few sentences longer picking the mom's brain on why she would vote liberal while there's less analysis on why dads would vote conservative (maybe this was the bias he was talking about? I'm probably giving him too much credit.) But no, he was definitely the biased one and the description is very even handed.

BraveOcelot Since: Sep, 2018
#18: Dec 29th 2024 at 11:33:00 AM

[up] I think that mod post is telling us to stop popcorning.

Now that you're pointing that out, I do agree that maybe there should be more lines explaining the father's stance. Specifically, why is the father motivated to protect his family, beyond the societal expectation of doing so? The connection is not obvious.

Also, um. I've been thinking about how my mom is conservative, but her views seem to align with those of the liberal mother, as described in this trope. So I'm wondering, between the stated political orientation of the characters and their actual views relative to each other, which is more important? Perhaps the latter, since fiction often obscures characters' political parties? Maybe the description should be changed to reflect this?

Snicka Since: Jun, 2011
#19: Dec 29th 2024 at 3:01:22 PM

[up]Not sure which country you are from, but keep in mind that depending on specific countries' political history, the terms "conservative" and "liberal" can mean very different things

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#20: Dec 29th 2024 at 4:43:32 PM

Yeah, in America (at least) the parties are polarized and these beliefs are pretty solidly recognized as being liberal. I don't know how it works in other countries.

I agree we can probably explain the dad's side more, though really it boils down to men being generally more conservative and having the most to gain if things stay rigid and traditional (assuming of course that they're already conservative, it's kind of cyclical). But more attention can definitely be paid to it

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
BraveOcelot Since: Sep, 2018
#21: Dec 29th 2024 at 6:24:37 PM

For clarity, I'm American and my mom is a passionate nuclear engineer.

That being said, the point about other countries' politics is a good one. If this trope is using the American political spectrum, that should be mentioned in the description, along with how the trope can apply to other political systems.

Aquillion Since: Jan, 2001
#22: Dec 30th 2024 at 8:11:17 AM

The description isn't biased, but it does seem a bit too long; I feel like the big "In both cases, their political leanings..." paragraph is a bit unnecessary. We just need enough there to identify the trope, not an in-depth analysis about why this specific gender-role and political breakdown resonates with the viewing public.

(Plus, we already have the much more succinct "this is popular in fiction because, statistically, it was common in reality" explanation above, which makes this large paragraph feel like it's more about trying to explain why it was common in reality, which is really more the sort of in-depth analysis that goes on a useful notes page.)

EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#23: Dec 30th 2024 at 8:53:42 AM

I think maybe the emphasis is placed a bit too much on a specific conservative vs liberal definition, when the idea behind the trope is a bit more universal than that. Fiscal Conservative and Socially Liberal mean different things despite sounding the same.

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#24: Dec 30th 2024 at 9:06:05 AM

I was the one who suggested the description be given more, mostly because it seemed kind of stubby and unfinished before. I don't think there's anything wrong with explaining the potential motives of the characters but it may have admittedly drifted off course.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#25: Dec 30th 2024 at 9:27:18 AM

To muddy the waters, the term "neoliberal" is often associated with what Americans generally consider "conservative."

This makes it harder to define the trope.

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