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Dictionaryman616 Since: Mar, 2020 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#701: May 4th 2025 at 11:28:53 AM

That's weak. It undermines the movie's ending by like 5%.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#702: May 4th 2025 at 11:30:13 AM

They were too cowardly to advertise it as New Avengers from the start.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 5th 2025 at 2:30:28 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#703: May 4th 2025 at 11:32:48 AM

It's supposed to be a twist, so that makes sense.

It's really stupid that they're letting the marketing spoil it. It's the punchline of the entire film.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 4th 2025 at 11:33:00 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#704: May 4th 2025 at 11:39:31 AM

It's like how Red Hulk being Ross was supposed to be a twist.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#705: May 4th 2025 at 11:45:41 AM

I wonder what the filmmakers are thinking about this. Filmmakers have zero control over marketing, so it always sucks when this sort of thing happens.

Oshawott337 Since: Jul, 2020 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
#706: May 4th 2025 at 11:49:29 AM

Just out of curiosity, what's Sentry like in the comics? I've heard he's apparently not very popular.

"Let’s see who’s stronger: someone that has something to protect, or someone that has nothing to lose."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#707: May 4th 2025 at 11:51:47 AM

This kinda makes naming them Thunderbolts a waste of drama since a lot of the discourse with this movie was the disappointment of not having iconic mainstays of the Thunderbolts like Moonstone, Songbird, and Baron Zemo not be in this movie, but it turns out they aren't the Thunderbolts, but off-brand New Avengers.

And they were too cowardly to not pick that name from the start.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#708: May 4th 2025 at 11:52:23 AM

Again, not cowardice. It's a twist.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 4th 2025 at 11:52:41 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#709: May 4th 2025 at 11:54:11 AM

Bah, there's no reason for it to be a twist.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#710: May 4th 2025 at 11:55:17 AM

Yeah it's not really cowardly it's just a meta twist. Honestly I don't know how I feel about it, but I don't think it was cowardice that led to the twist.

[up] By that logic there's no reason for it not to be a twist.

Edited by Bullman on May 4th 2025 at 1:55:52 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#711: May 4th 2025 at 11:56:15 AM

[up][up]

Of course there is. The whole point of the film is that these are disparate people who aren't intending to set out to be heroes, just trying to survive and maybe make up for a few things they're done. This isn't a film about the Avengers, it's a film about - effectively - lower decks.

Them becoming the New Avengers is a shocking development that happens in the last five minutes of the film and turns the entire narrative the characters have about themselves and who they are on its head.

Knowing that it happens ahead of time practically ruins the film. There's no reason they would ever have put that in the title of the film.

It's like if they had named the first Avengers film "The Avengers Avenge Coulson" before anyone even knew Coulson was going to die.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 4th 2025 at 11:58:31 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#712: May 4th 2025 at 11:57:36 AM

[up][up]Like just call them New Avengers from the start, and the twist would be how they got that name. They don't need to make up some story about Yelena's soft ball team being called the Thunderbolts to justify the title and get fans of the comics annoyed with the inaccuracy.

Which ironically makes the movie's treatment of Taskmaster a bit more bitter.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 5th 2025 at 2:57:53 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#713: May 4th 2025 at 11:59:27 AM

Like just call them New Avengers from the start, and the twist would be how they got that name

Why in the world would anyone do that? It's hinging the audience's investment in the film on something that the movie by and large isn't actually about, and is a good way to needlessly disappoint audiences.

This isn't written as "the story of how these heroes became the New Avengers." It's written as "the story of how these dysfunctional people managed to do the right thing, then SURPRISE! The dysfunctional crew become the New Avengers right at the end!"

Them becoming the New Avengers is set up for future stories. It's not the point of the film.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 4th 2025 at 12:00:57 PM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#714: May 4th 2025 at 12:08:12 PM

I'd explain more, but it's getting late where I am.

I will say, I do think naming this movie the Thunderbolts caused a lot of discourse pre-release and wrong expectations that comes with the name, but that's all a waste because now the marketing is spoiling the twist.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#715: May 4th 2025 at 12:11:41 PM

Just out of curiosity, what's Sentry like in the comics? I've heard he's apparently not very popular.

Sentry in the comics was introduced as a lost superhero supposedly created by Stan Lee back in the Silver Age, who was once the world's greatest hero and friends with all the major Marvel heroes, until one day he disappeared along with everybody's memories of him. It turns out he deliberately did this to keep the Void from getting out and his backstory is revealed to be essentially what's presented in the film. From there, he was used occasionally in comics like World War Hulk where he memorably battled the Worldbreaker (Hulk's strongest alter at the time, whose name is not exaggerating) and forced him back into Bruce Banner. But then gradual Sanity Slippage reduced him to a Psychopathic Manchild that acted as Norman Osborn's personal attack dog until he was killed and stayed dead for quite awhile. That last part is mainly why his reputation is the way it is, not helped by retcons making the Void an outside entity possessing him instead of a manifestation of his mental illness, but he was initially fairly well-liked.

Edited by lbssb on May 4th 2025 at 3:40:27 PM

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Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#716: May 4th 2025 at 12:12:15 PM

The New Abolts. I like it!

Just Makima.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#717: May 4th 2025 at 12:14:42 PM

[up][up] So in a weird way, I did kinda get my wish that Dark Reign happened. [lol]

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Ego-Man25 Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#718: May 4th 2025 at 12:26:00 PM

I feel like weighing in: I'd have just called it New Avengers from the start. Making it a twist ran the risk of marketers fucking them in the ass like that, so better you make the framing "How the FUCK did we get here?"

Self-professed Wild Card who thinks cynicism isn't so bad.
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#719: May 4th 2025 at 12:27:34 PM

like World War Hulk where he memorably battled the Worldbreaker (Hulk's strongest alter at the time, whose name is not exaggerating) and forced him back into Bruce Banner.

They forced each other into their civilian forms. Don't be revisionist now.

Bob then passed out, while Bruce was left standing.

Edited by Cortez on May 4th 2025 at 3:29:24 PM

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#720: May 4th 2025 at 12:47:40 PM

[up]True, but it was still the most anybody in the story was able to do to the Worldbreaker and marks the turning point where Miek becomes the main antagonist.

(Yes, movie people, Korg's goofy worm friend was kind of a slimy manipulator in the comics)

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
AlexHopeLife Since: Feb, 2025
#721: May 4th 2025 at 12:51:14 PM

Miek's event was so shocking, that even the Xenomorph Expy (The Brood) was horrified that he had done it.

Edited by AlexHopeLife on May 4th 2025 at 12:55:02 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#722: May 4th 2025 at 12:56:49 PM

I define the Thunderbolts as B-level villains trying to find redemption.

Which means it's fundamentally not the same as the Suicide Squad despite some similarities.

The Thunderbolts must always be trying to be better people and just bad at it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AlexHopeLife Since: Feb, 2025
#723: May 4th 2025 at 1:05:21 PM

Although in Civil War they evolved to be "Iron Man's henchmen" so he doesn't get his hands dirty.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#724: May 4th 2025 at 1:18:33 PM

To be fair, I think there's a weird disconnect.

Osborn's Thunderbolts are treated as a legitimate version of the team when they're more the Psycho Rangers version of it.

I mean, do we consider Bullseye a legitimate Avenger?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#725: May 4th 2025 at 1:21:50 PM

I mean shit, the real psycho rangers are the Dark Avengers, Norman's Thunderbolts were considered a rebranding of the team rather than an evil counterpart.

His tenure along with the other villains like Gargan are considered legit as far as Marvel is concerned.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 4th 2025 at 4:22:26 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"

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