themayorofsimpleton
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
from the Island of Koridai
(Captain)
Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#2: Oct 16th 2024 at 8:40:11 AM
~AdmiralAkbar1 Paging you since we had discussed this over PMs, in case you wanted to participate.
Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
LordGro
(Old as dirt)
#4: Oct 16th 2024 at 1:11:20 PM
I recently commented in the
Trope Description Improvement thread
on this very matter. Quoting myself:
Personally I think the trope needs to be TRS'ed to fit the definition suggested by the trope name; namely, the racist idea that white women exert an irresistible sexual attraction on black men (or even generally non-white men), and that black men want nothing more than to have sex with a white woman. Hence white women need to be watched and guarded from being hit on, picked up, seduced, molested, raped by black men. Because sex with a black man—even if consensual—would defile a white woman and, in a wider perspective, compromise the purity and nobility of the white race.
As you see, this definition does not require the black man and the white woman to be in a relationship. Many of the examples that are already on the page do not involve a relationship. Take this:
- While not the Ur-Example, one of the earliest trope codifiers for films of this trope is The Birth of a Nation (aka The Clansman), a controversial but influential 1915 film in which the Ku Klux Klan is founded in large part because the white men need to defend the honor of their women, who are being taken away to be raped by Always Chaotic Evil black men.
Total posts: 4

Where da White Women At? is a trope about the various ways in which white-black relationships are viewed, with an emphasis on the immorality part. There seems to be a primary focus on the black man as an aggressor or intimidator against the seemingly-pure white woman, while the white woman is seen as engaging in such relationships due to rebellion or sexual desire.
This leads me to the question — what is this trope about? There seem to be multiple potentially tropeworthy ideas being discussed here, lumped together in one big trope.
The description recently had a massive overhaul by AdmiralAkbar1. This was the original description:
Though it's no big deal in most of the world (not more than other types of interracial relationships, anyway), there are still some parts — e.g. South Africa, parts of Europe and the USA (especially the south) — where black-white ethnic relations are troubled and this trope actually comes into play. In Real Life, black man/white woman couples are somewhat common and there are a variety of views on what this kind of relationship should or does entail. White man/black woman pairs don't get as much attention (positive or negative) perhaps because they are less common, at least in America, though the gap appears to be narrowing. South Africa and the USA have had a serious Double Standard when it comes to this gender divide, as a direct consequence of Apartheid and the USA's Jim Crow laws (and slavery before that): many white men had black slave mistresses, and this practice was generally accepted or at least tolerated. The reverse-gendered version, of a free woman loving a male slave, was seen as "corrupting" the white race and could result in a cruel and unusual murder for the (African) slave and the public shaming (and possible rape/death) of the free woman, albeit most of the time, the white woman may claim to have been raped by her lover in order to avoid the humiliation, or worse, the responsibility. Perhaps having accused him maliciously for a perceived slight or just plain hatred. Even in the absence of hatred, any white woman could simply wave hi to a black teenager and be accused by her fellow countrymen (And women) of being in a relationship with a him (Or god forbid, having a child with him) to destroy her reputation. What self respecting pure-blooded white woman would give them the time of day after all?
As a result, the laws of the time deemed a black man and white woman engaging in consensual sex (or even sharing space) as equal to rape and led to the deaths of many innocent black men, and the character assassinations of innocent white women. When slavery gave way to Jim Crow and Apartheid, this bias remained - the chief difference being that before Apartheid and Jim Crow era, a white woman-black man couple would be lynched or slandered by the authorities, whereas during, they would instead be lynched/slandered by family/friends/neighbors whom the authorities couldn't be bothered to prosecute for murder. That's assuming the man in question wasn't already hung for, God forbid, being attracted to her.
While less common and no longer illegal (Technically), hatred for these pairings is still Truth in Television. Due to the extensive history between blacks and whites described above, bias still exists toward black man & white women pairings. And people today have lost their lives or dignity over choosing someone who isn't of their race. But given that any real-life example would be subjective and might even cause a flame war, all you need to know about this trope's impact in real life has been described above.
Please note that just like this trope's white/Asian counterpart, not every black/white romance falls under this trope. If the lovers just happen to be interracial and nobody makes a big deal out of it, then it is simply a mundane relationship. Only when it is seen as a controversial mixed marriage and/or one of the lovers expresses an extra attraction to their partner's skin tone is the trope in effect.
It's also worth noting that the affection isn't one-sided in the least. There are plenty of white women on the prowl, wondering if what they've heard is true. This trope was commonly nicknamed Jungle Fever, until Spike Lee made a film deconstructing the term.
Contrast Like Goes with Like. The gender inverted version of this trope is Black Gal on White Guy Drama. Also, any discussion of this trope is likely to bring up Black Is Bigger in Bed. Also tends to be used in Dating What Daddy Hates.
And here is the updated version:
While it exists to an extent in every part of the world with significant white or black populations, it's especially pronounced in places with a history of (often white-on-black) slavery, colonialism, or discrimination—the Anglosphere in general, and the United States and South Africa in particular. Racial and sexual hierarchies there led to a Double Standard where a white man/black woman relationship wasn't judged as harshly as a black man/white woman relationship; the former at least kept the white man in the dominant role, while the latter had a black man in the dominant role and made things more transgressive and scandalous.
The most common stereotype of black men in relationships with white women is that their attraction isn't pure, they actually have a Race Fetish, and white women are purely Lust Objects for them. Black men may also be depicted as having an Extreme Libido, preferring one-night-stands over long-term relationships, and disappearing as soon as they're confronted with commitment or fatherhood. At worst, they're portrayed as Corruptors who delight in turning white women into sinful harlots, or outright predators who target white woman for abduction and rape.
White women in the relationship have similar stereotypes, though expressed differently. They only want black men for sexual thrills: they desire the Forbidden Fruit, they're Dating What Daddy Hates, or they heard that Black Is Bigger in Bed. They may also be depicted as morally loose and promiscuous in general—besides the stereotype of black male promiscuity, it's also assumed that if they have no racial standards for partners, they must have no sexual standards at all! This could be because they were sinful from the start, or a sexual encounter with a black man (willful or not) set them down a lifelong path of miscegenated depravity.
In the past, these relationships were simply depicted as immoral on one or both members' part, and any condemnation they received was justly earned. However, as attitudes on interracial relationships softened and this became a Discredited Trope, works increasingly focused on the unjust criticism the couple receives from their family, friends, and community. Love-Obstructing Parents and accusations of being a Race Traitor are a common factor on both sides of the relationship. The black man in particular may be accused of having internalized racism, thinking black women are ugly, or trying to "act white".
A subtrope of Maligned Mixed Marriage and Race Fetish. Counterpart to Black Gal on White Guy Drama. Compare Black Is Bigger in Bed and Black Jezebel Stereotype for other black sexual stereotypes, Latin Lover and Shiksa Goddess for other white woman/nonwhite man relationship tropes, and Greedy Jew and Yellow Peril for other racial panics with sexual undertones. Contrast Like Goes with Like. This is also nicknamed "jungle fever," and inspired a Spike Lee film of the same name deconstructing the trope.
Note: This trope is not about any and all relationships between a white woman and black man. It should specifically be about ones that embody (or are accused of embodying) these specific stereotypes and fetishes. No Real Life Examples, Please!
The updated description is definitely an improvement — it is clearer about what the trope actually is — but it does not solve the problem of the definition, a problem I believe only TRS could solve. (Of note is that there was a TRS
, which fizzled out before any action could really be implemented.)
I'm starting this thread following a PM conversation with AdmiralAkbar1 to ask: what is the definition? And what can be done here?
Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Oct 16th 2024 at 11:42:04 AM
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