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The index Works by Subject was ostensibly created in order to house existing indices of works with significant commonalities in subject matter and themes. These indices were previously listed on Genres; however, the argument was made that many, such as Queer Media and Asian-American Media, did not actually meet the definition of a Genre.

Since then, as discussed in this Wiki Talk thread, a number of indexes went through the Trope Launch Pad whose definitions can largely be boiled down to "work prominently includes 'x' eponymous thing in it", which has a couple of problems:

Largely prompted by a Troper Critical Mass on the since-discarded TLP for Ursine Fiction, the thread previously voted to impose a moratorium on new Works About "X" Indexes. We have previously removed Samurai Stories and Shark Storiesnote  as redundant to existing tropes, and there is a lot of agreement to do the same to the entire "Animal Fiction" category; however, we have since agreed to create a thread to deal with the entirety of Works by Subject in one swoop.

Options proposed in Wiki Talk:

TLP Archive for Works By Subject

Edited by JustaUsername on Oct 18th 2025 at 7:52:12 PM

ninjamitsuki2 Mero Mero Merorin from The Altress of Fortuna Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Mero Mero Merorin
#176: Oct 23rd 2024 at 6:57:02 PM

I think Mons Series should stay since it's an established genre like Magical Girl Genre Index and predates the whole "works by subject" index to begin with.

Edited by ninjamitsuki2 on Oct 23rd 2024 at 10:06:01 AM

Call me "Heruru Meruru". http://blue-star-above-me.tumblr.com/
Nethilia Girl Gang Disaster (she and zie) (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
Girl Gang Disaster (she and zie)
#177: Oct 23rd 2024 at 9:08:50 PM

I looked at the history for Works by Subject and it was another editor who put Dolls in that category in the first place, not me when I was indexing. I put it on Useful Notes and Toy Tropes (among others). Not that it matters now, but I think that ought to be noted.

I focus on obscure 1990s or graphic Middle Grade Literature novels and dolls. (She or zie, not they.)
Lymantria Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph from Toronto Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
#178: Oct 23rd 2024 at 9:16:07 PM

[up][up] Agreed.

[up] I still think it may well be worth keeping as a category of toys.

Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#179: Oct 23rd 2024 at 9:29:39 PM

[up][up][up] I'm not 100% opposed, but what would that even look like that isn't already Mons? Genuinely asking here, because Mons pretty much already says everything that a genre page would, it just doesn't index and that personally isn't enough to justify the creation of another page IMO. (And on a much smaller note, Mons Series is a slightly non-indicative name for an index that includes comics, video games, and movies.)

Lymantria Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph from Toronto Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
#180: Oct 23rd 2024 at 9:48:40 PM

I wonder if something that makes a difference as to something being a genre is whether on not it only involves one thing. For example, even if indexes under “non-human beings” are redundant with the various tropes about said beings, you can’t reduce “sci-fi” or “fantasy” to one thing or one trope as easily.

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Nethilia Girl Gang Disaster (she and zie) (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
Girl Gang Disaster (she and zie)
#181: Oct 23rd 2024 at 10:53:15 PM

[up][up][up] It 100% should be kept as a category of toys, hence why it's on the Toys page. There's several other toys that have an article on here but as they weren't listed on the Works by Subject Page, they weren't included in this TRS. Someone brought up Teddy Bear; the page has a listing of media with bears in it as well as tropes applied to it but it doesn't index and so wasn't listed on the Works By Subject page.

Edited by Nethilia on Oct 23rd 2024 at 10:54:19 AM

I focus on obscure 1990s or graphic Middle Grade Literature novels and dolls. (She or zie, not they.)
StalkerGamer That's All, Folks! Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#182: Oct 25th 2024 at 2:11:49 PM

Anyone else has more thoughts about what amathieu13 suggested ?

Edited by StalkerGamer on Oct 25th 2024 at 6:12:03 AM

Someoneman Since: Nov, 2011
#183: Oct 25th 2024 at 10:06:41 PM

I missed the beginning of this thread even though I was waiting for it since I have some thoughts on the Works by Subject indexes. The main problem is that people are indexing works that include X, which I agree is wrong, but works about X could work as categories of media. The rule of thumb should be: If you can remove the X, or replace it with a different type of character or thing without changing the main plot or central premise, then the work isn't X Media. However, it sounds like the current consensus is that those categories are too broad even if we cut the "there's an X" examples.

LGBT Representation in Media: I'm opposed to it being an index for works, for the reasons in the above paragraph (and only those reasons) - if a work features LGBT characters or themes prominently enough to be worth indexing, then it should fit into the Queer Media or Queer Romance indexes. I get why we have the index, but LGBT representation (or representation in general) is a trope (or supertrope), not index. Otherwise, we're just falling back into saying "this character is X" in a chairsy way, which is the reason we cut many LGBT tropes in the first place. I have some ideas for tropes about the different ways or reasons for a work to include representation, such as Token Queer, Queer Episode, and some kind of Garnishing the Story trope.

For the "Animal Media" indexes, I think that there could be a Pet Care Stories index for works where the core premise is the protagonist caring for one or more pets. Among Canine and Feline Fiction, I think that's the most salvageable idea.

For the "Non-Human Creatures" indexes, I'm split. Since they don't exist in real life, basing an entire work around these creatures is more significant that just having a cat, dog, or elephant, even if there are many vastly different ways to write such works. Of course, works where the creatures aren't central to the work's premise should be cut. (For example, ''Hotel Transylvania does not belong under Werewolf Works and Mummy Media, since the werewolves and mummy are just supporting characters.) If we just nuke the section, I think the redirects/disambiguations should be for more plot or genre-centric tropes. For example, Alien Invasion for Alien Works, and Zombie Apocalypse for Zombie Stories, instead of the Our Monsters Are Different tropes.

Lymantria Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph from Toronto Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
#184: Oct 25th 2024 at 10:12:25 PM

For LGBT Representation in Media, is the purpose of the index to track said representation? I thought so at first, but I could be wrong.

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Nethilia Girl Gang Disaster (she and zie) (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
Girl Gang Disaster (she and zie)
#185: Oct 25th 2024 at 11:48:05 PM

[up][up] If you can remove the X, or replace it with a different type of character or thing without changing the main plot or central premise, then the work isn't X Media.

This is why I put on the Dolls page that if a doll in the media is merely a prop and could be replaced with, say, a lamp, it's not Doll Media. It was an effort to combat it merely being a listing of things that have a doll being lugged around or that have a flimsy tie to said plot.

I focus on obscure 1990s or graphic Middle Grade Literature novels and dolls. (She or zie, not they.)
GrafVonTirol Same as it ever was from a state of boredom (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Standing outside, playing "In Your Eyes" on the boombox
Same as it ever was
#186: Oct 26th 2024 at 12:09:21 PM

Have we said all we needed in order to get a crowner organized? Not sure if I'm keen on merging the current crop of indices either unless they're above 5000 inbounds. I'm still sure that a legitimate genre page can be formed for horror works that involve a zombie apocalypse.

Also [tup]Monster Movies for works like what prominently features kaiju.

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Oct 26th 2024 at 12:09:57 PM

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#187: Oct 27th 2024 at 1:48:29 AM

I do think Monster Movie is recognized as a genre alongside Disaster Movie, though it's not limited to kaiju.

Edited by Amonimus on Oct 27th 2024 at 11:48:47 AM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
guardianofthepark Since: Jun, 2024
#188: Oct 27th 2024 at 2:56:04 AM

Monster Movie is a good idea, but should the page be separated in sub-pages (like for example Giant Monster Movie) to not mistake it for a page for all movies with monsters in them?

StalkerGamer That's All, Folks! Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#189: Oct 27th 2024 at 5:14:15 PM

Should we open another crowner to discuss these other suggestions ? I'm getting confused in this thread (that's the thing that I was concerned about)

GrafVonTirol Same as it ever was from a state of boredom (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Standing outside, playing "In Your Eyes" on the boombox
Same as it ever was
#190: Oct 28th 2024 at 5:03:32 AM

Yeah, not sure if there's anything to add to the conversation of this current crop.

GrafVonTirol Same as it ever was from a state of boredom (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Standing outside, playing "In Your Eyes" on the boombox
Same as it ever was
#191: Oct 30th 2024 at 6:38:17 AM

Bumping. Shall we start a crowner for:

  • Cutting the pages under the Other Non-Humans section in the Characters and Creatures folder, except Dolls for reworking to Media Notes.
  • Merging said pages as suggested by amathieu13
  • ... anything else I'm missing aside from maybe repurposing a few pages?

StalkerGamer That's All, Folks! Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
animuacid The girl of the window from Astyr residence in Lilysthia's grounds Since: Jan, 2024 Relationship Status: I love you for psychological reasons
The girl of the window
#193: Oct 30th 2024 at 8:28:58 AM

And I don't think we can apply the same solution to all creature indexes. I think Vampire Fiction and Alien Stories can go with keep&clean, or with retooling into genre.

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#194: Oct 30th 2024 at 9:19:29 AM

I think those should all be redirected to the respective Our Monsters Are Different pages, not cut outright. I don't think [up]Vampire Fiction is keepable as-is, but particular flavors can be turned into genre pages a la Vampire Detective Series, so we should preserve that one in a sandbox.

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
animuacid The girl of the window from Astyr residence in Lilysthia's grounds Since: Jan, 2024 Relationship Status: I love you for psychological reasons
The girl of the window
#195: Oct 30th 2024 at 9:24:01 AM

Mons Series is also the closest to being a genre index. It can be kept too.

Nethilia Girl Gang Disaster (she and zie) (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
Girl Gang Disaster (she and zie)
#196: Oct 30th 2024 at 11:24:20 AM

Yeah, it sounds like more discussion is needed in the sections of:

  • which indexes are actually genres to keep
  • which are best moved under their respective creature categories
  • which are of little to no use and should be terminated
  • which have mixed use and should be redirected to other categories (like Dolls)

I focus on obscure 1990s or graphic Middle Grade Literature novels and dolls. (She or zie, not they.)
GrafVonTirol Same as it ever was from a state of boredom (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Standing outside, playing "In Your Eyes" on the boombox
Same as it ever was
#197: Oct 30th 2024 at 11:54:19 AM

So far, what I can see:

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Oct 30th 2024 at 11:56:42 AM

StalkerGamer That's All, Folks! Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#198: Oct 31st 2024 at 7:02:40 PM

[up]Yes, that's what we have until now

Edited by StalkerGamer on Oct 31st 2024 at 11:03:11 AM

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#199: Nov 1st 2024 at 12:12:49 AM

We should explicitly list those that are "of no use" and crowner them. Rewriting the others would need someone to put an effort into it.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Alpinist Since: Jul, 2023
#200: Nov 1st 2024 at 9:00:39 AM

What’s the opinion on School Stories? It would leave a big gap if cut given the lack of other categories for lots of teen media as far as I know.

5th Sep '25 5:46:56 PM

Crown Description:

Several indexes contained within the Works By Subject index have been identified as having issues, with a key one being their lack of purpose as indexes. This crowner will determine what to do with several of the items on this index. Discussion starting here

Total posts: 693
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