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    Original OP 

The index Works by Subject was ostensibly created in order to house existing indices of works with significant commonalities in subject matter and themes. These indices were previously listed on Genres; however, the argument was made that many, such as Queer Media and Asian-American Media, did not actually meet the definition of a Genre.

Since then, as discussed in this Wiki Talk thread, a number of indexes went through the Trope Launch Pad whose definitions can largely be boiled down to "work prominently includes 'x' eponymous thing in it", which has a couple of problems:

Largely prompted by a Troper Critical Mass on the since-discarded TLP for Ursine Fiction, the thread previously voted to impose a moratorium on new Works About "X" Indexes. We have previously removed Samurai Stories and Shark Storiesnote  as redundant to existing tropes, and there is a lot of agreement to do the same to the entire "Animal Fiction" category; however, we have since agreed to create a thread to deal with the entirety of Works by Subject in one swoop.

Options proposed in Wiki Talk:

TLP Archive for Works By Subject

Edited by JustaUsername on Oct 18th 2025 at 7:52:12 PM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#276: Nov 9th 2024 at 11:54:13 PM

@269 (Too many arrows) No, indexes and trope lists do not have the same function. One is to explain how a trope is used; the other as a listing of works. These aren't interchangeable: An index list should usually be limited to works where indexed concept is prominent (and thus require cleanup of "incidental" examples) while a trope list needs to explain the usage. Trope example lists contain many irrelevant examples and much irrelevant explanation for someone looking for works where a concept is prominent.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#277: Nov 10th 2024 at 7:26:00 AM

[up]You're missing the point. We all know that trope lists and indices are created to have different functions. No one is saying that this is how things should be. The overwhelming evidence by just looking through any of these indices however shows a bunch of works on these lists that are debatable if not outright incorrectly listed. They have ended up in practice as lists that have works where the X merely appears, which is in effect how the corresponding trope pages function, except at least on those, entries require some kind of description about the presentation of the X.

It is pretty clear that the scoping conditions of the X having to be "main" or "central" or "prominent" are too vague, considering that almost every single one of these indices that is only defined as such has the same issue of wrong/debatable entries. You can suggest clean-up, but without redefining these indices with clearer parameters, there's nothing that would prevent these indices from devolving once again without active monitoring of all of these indices, which is a waste of time, energy, and manpower that the site does not have to spare.

But even if we did that, why do we care about X being in a "prominent" position in the story (however you define it)? What does that actually tell us about these stories? Every time those questions have been asked, the answer was something like "to list works with significant commonalities in subject matter and themes." But a thing being in a "prominent" position does not mean they share similar or even related subject matters, representations, or themes. (To save me from re-explaining things, more on that here.)

Edited by amathieu13 on Nov 10th 2024 at 7:27:41 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#278: Nov 10th 2024 at 9:54:43 AM

No, I disagree that the point is sufficient to override the problem that for some uses, genre pages have extraneous examples and extraneous text compared to index pages. You and anyone can disagree on whether this would justify the maintenance needed on the index pages, but it's not a matter of "missing a point".

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#279: Nov 10th 2024 at 10:31:20 AM

Would it help if these indexes had example context (something I've kept suggesting for genres) to show how much they would be relevant to the "stories about X" instead of "X appears"?

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#280: Nov 10th 2024 at 11:15:11 AM

[up][up] What uses are you talking about? And what text is extraneous on genre pages? The actual description of the genre? The description of the works when they are listed that serves as evidence that they indeed belong on the page? I genuinely am confused by that statement because from where I stand, neither of those things are "problems" and they prevent the very issues that have arisen with these indices.

Edited by amathieu13 on Nov 10th 2024 at 11:20:31 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#281: Nov 10th 2024 at 11:34:44 AM

Trope example lists contain many irrelevant examples and much irrelevant explanation for someone looking for works where a concept is prominent. That is one purpose of indexes, and you don't need much explanation in an index to satisfy this purpose. The context is more an issue for tropes and genres, because examples there are meant to illustrate how the tropes/genres are employed, so they need explanation.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#282: Nov 10th 2024 at 11:40:16 AM

Except the indexes don't even serve the purpose of "listing works where a subject is prominent". Because that's a subjective concept and it's led to much misuse.

Even then, this only argues that the indexes serve a different role, it doesn't actually explain why they're necessary other than that people seem to like them. But people don't seem to have any greater reason for this other than that they like to categorize things or that they're interested in very specific subjects, even if the actual works listed have nothing else in common.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Nethilia Girl Gang Disaster (she and zie) (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
Girl Gang Disaster (she and zie)
#283: Nov 10th 2024 at 12:48:49 PM

#279:

This is what I aimed for with the Dolls page. I even kept it on my followed, watched it as much as possible, and did my best to remove examples that didn't fit — and put a paragraph stating that just carrying a doll around or as a motivation that was easily replaced with anything else was not an example, nor was any media that had dolls as The Merch. I tried to avoid "it's just where X appears casually."

I focus on obscure 1990s or graphic Middle Grade Literature novels and dolls. (She or zie, not they.)
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#284: Nov 10th 2024 at 3:52:00 PM

What if we reworked Robot and A.I. Works to be about works specifically based on robots and concepts specific to them? Like, instead of just being "every work with a robot in it", we could say something like "robots and related thematic concepts have to be the primary focus of this work"?

So, that would mean examples like Treasure Planet and X-Men: Days of Future Past wouldn't count, since robots/AI and related theming aren't the main focus of either story, but something like The Iron Giant would, since it extensively deals with concepts where a robot would be needed for the story (in this case a robot learning human morality).

Part of me wonders if we can apply such a rule to other Works by Subject indexes too — they can't just be "X is in this work", they have to be "X and themes related to X are the primary focus of this work." Admittedly I'm a little shaky on this idea — and I don't think all indexes could be saved with it — but I think it's worth pitching. Thoughts?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Nov 10th 2024 at 6:54:14 AM

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#285: Nov 10th 2024 at 3:54:53 PM

Maybe for the non-animal non-human creatures it could kinda work, I mean we're already considering the idea of genre pages like Creature Feature / Monster Movies and the like. If there's a more specific robot-centric genre we can pivot to, I'm fine with that. (I'm excluding the animal ones because there's really no specific themes you can even pull from, say, "works primarily focused on dogs"; it covers too broad of a range)

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#286: Nov 10th 2024 at 4:29:03 PM

I support reworking the index into "works about robot (social) themes", but unless someone wants to vet the list that may be up to TLP.

Edited by Amonimus on Nov 10th 2024 at 3:29:49 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#287: Nov 10th 2024 at 4:58:53 PM

[up][up][up] "Robots and related thematic concepts have to be the primary focus of this work" is more or less how the page is defined already: "Any works of fiction that feature Artificial Intelligence, Robots, and/or Cyborgs as main characters or playing a critical role in the story". (Indices with more writing on them like Princess Stories and Pirate Stories are defined exactly like that and still have the same issue.) It only devolved into "any work with robots and ai in it" because something like "central" or "critical role" is not that clear of a limitation. "Primary focus" is not much clearer, imo.

I don't personally support a general "robot social themes" index because robots can be and have been used to tell a range of stories revolving around a bunch of themes, some social, some personal, some metaphysical, etc. And once we start talking about those themes in the specific, we're wading back into trope territory like What Measure Is a Non-Human?, Fantastic Racism, The Evils of Free Will, etc.

Edited by amathieu13 on Nov 10th 2024 at 5:11:13 AM

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#288: Nov 10th 2024 at 5:33:19 PM

[up] Perhaps. I was just spitballing — wasn’t too attached to the idea to begin with. Just wanted to gauge opinions.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
StalkerGamer That's All, Folks! Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#289: Nov 10th 2024 at 6:07:58 PM

4x[up] It was considered creating an index about works focusing on Pets life or something like that, but I don't know if anyone agreed with that idea.

GrafVonTirol Same as it ever was from a state of boredom (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Standing outside, playing "In Your Eyes" on the boombox
Same as it ever was
#290: Nov 12th 2024 at 3:08:33 AM

Crowner's been up a week, so good time to call it?

StalkerGamer That's All, Folks! Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#291: Nov 12th 2024 at 4:10:50 AM

[up]If everyone is fine with that, then yes

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#292: Nov 12th 2024 at 9:29:56 AM

Uh, the current crowner got called four days ago.

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
StalkerGamer That's All, Folks! Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#293: Nov 12th 2024 at 12:59:15 PM

Should we start the moving and redirects ?

Edited by StalkerGamer on Nov 12th 2024 at 5:59:26 PM

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#294: Nov 12th 2024 at 3:16:51 PM

Everything except Mons Series, yes.

Speaking of which, what are we doing about that one? I know we wanted to keep it, but not sure what else.

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
StalkerGamer That's All, Folks! Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
Lymantria Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph from Toronto Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
StalkerGamer That's All, Folks! Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#297: Nov 12th 2024 at 4:43:27 PM

What exactly was discussed about Mons Series ? It was considered to keep, or atleast removing some works that don't belong in there ?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#298: Nov 12th 2024 at 4:46:07 PM

I don't know if we ever reached consensus, but it was suggested that it could either stay as-is or be merged with the general Mons page.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Lymantria Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph from Toronto Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
#299: Nov 12th 2024 at 5:01:23 PM

So which one should we do? I’d say it’s a valid genre.

Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
StalkerGamer That's All, Folks! Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#300: Nov 12th 2024 at 5:13:00 PM

I consider to do the same as we did to other indices, which is redirect to Mon.

5th Sep '25 5:46:56 PM

Crown Description:

Several indexes contained within the Works By Subject index have been identified as having issues, with a key one being their lack of purpose as indexes. This crowner will determine what to do with several of the items on this index. Discussion starting here

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