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Can a Forced Meme not be from the internet?

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themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#1: Oct 10th 2024 at 7:53:32 PM

I started a wick check on Forced Meme recently due to concerns over complaining and speculative troping, with the idea that an In-Universe Examples Only conversion might be possible due to the presence of In-Universe examples. However, I ran into an interesting problem.

The description does not actually say what kind of memes count for the definition. At first, it seems like attempting to make a non-Internet catchphrase a thing might count:

Forcing a meme is the act of trying to intentionally raise the popularity of something to memetic status. It can involve mass repetition of a phrase or trying to convince someone else that it is already memetic.

But then it talks about memes as if they're internet exclusive?

Given the nature of the Internet, very few forced memes actually become accepted memes. People are naturally attracted to freedom and don't like being told what they should like. The few that do become accepted memes often do so only because people have made a meme about the meme, which means it's funny for a different reason than originally intended. That said, different people like different memes, and it's not uncommon for people to accuse a meme they don't like but see too often as being forced on them.

The original draft seems to say any meme can count, for the record.

So, in its current state, could a meme not from the internet count for Forced Meme? I just want to make sure my wick check categories are right.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Oct 10th 2024 at 10:54:50 AM

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number9robotic (Experienced Trainee)
#2: Oct 10th 2024 at 8:29:53 PM

I'm of the camp that Forced Meme should not be an internet-exclusive thing — memetic ideas have existed as a concept and cultural/social science for ages well before the internet.

Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
MsOranjeDiscoDancer 2much2furious from the Saja Boys' last performance! Since: Aug, 2022 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
2much2furious
#3: Oct 11th 2024 at 11:05:09 AM

Agreed; Astro Turfing has existed for a while, as have attempts to force fads throughout the ages

memes are not solely the property of the internet, just that the internet makes it easier to study in real time

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Aquillion Since: Jan, 2001
#4: Oct 15th 2024 at 12:02:55 PM

It gets complicated, though. Outside the internet, what is a meme? And how do we define whether someone is trying to force one? Especially when talking about older works and events when there wasn't really a concept of a meme?

Like, let's say a nobleman spreads a scurrilous rumor about another nobleman in order to undermine them. Is that a Forced Meme? Is Malicious Slander a subtrope of Forced Meme? Or what about a fashionista wearing a style of hat in an attempt to make it catch on? What about a religious figure spreading the story of their faith and telling those they teach to do the same? (Let's say we're talking about a fictional in-universe religion, to avoid the rule-of-cautious editing judgment issues that would come from discussing whether real-world religions are memes - though it is worth pointing out that from an academic standpoint, religious beliefs was one of the initial examples the word was created to discuss on account of the word being coined by Richard Dawkins.)

The academic definition of a meme is extremely broad, to the point where trying to "force" one could reasonably encompass any attempt to make a large number of people believe or think anything.

The trope IMHO only avoids chairs status by taking a specific narrow modern definition of a meme and a very specific "hello fellow kids" idea of forcing one. If any attempt to cause any idea, behavior, or style to perpetuate itself is forcing a meme, then it's too broad to be a trope, surely. It doesn't have to be on the internet, because what you might call "meme culture" has spread off the internet, but I'd view any pre-internet examples with an extremely skeptical eye and would argue that only things that have a very striking and unusual resemblance to modern post-internet meme culture should apply.

Edited by Aquillion on Oct 15th 2024 at 12:12:03 PM

number9robotic (Experienced Trainee)
#5: Oct 15th 2024 at 5:52:27 PM

Outside the internet, what is a meme?

"An idea, behavior, or style that spreads by means of imitation from person to person within a culture and often carries symbolic meaning representing a particular phenomenon or theme." It basically describes "a culturally-shared trope".

Is Malicious Slander a subtrope of Forced Meme?

No. A lie is not inherently a cultural concept shared by a breadth of people.

Or what about a fashionista wearing a style of hat in an attempt to make it catch on?

Depends — is that the explicit point of her wearing one? Or is it just something passive? Simply wearing a piece of clothing doesn't inherently communicate anything more than "I am wearing a thing," let alone impose this concept of "make it popular" regardless of how popular the person already is.

What about a religious figure spreading the story of their faith and telling those they teach to do the same?

That would fall into an academic definition of meme, but I'm pretty certain that people know very well the difference in colloquial tone between sharing a corporate slogan as a form of marketing or a quotable image macro about a TV show and someone explicitly preaching spiritual dogma.

The academic definition of a meme is extremely broad, to the point where trying to "force" one could reasonably encompass any attempt to make a large number of people believe or think anything.

Except we're not going by the strict academic definition — see the above distinction in people knowing the difference between a cheesy catchphrase and like, a religious manifesto.

If any attempt to cause any idea, behavior, or style to perpetuate itself is forcing a meme, then it's too broad to be a trope, surely.

I mean... it's already kinda-officially framed as storytelling trope (while it's not been codified through indexing as such yet, the way it's written specifies it's based around how characters act, not individuals in general, such as real-life people). This seems like it's still viable as an in-universe-examples-only concept because people explicitly trying to force a concept to spread among a target group of people in whatever culture is definitely a narratively tangible concept that can be troped.

Edited by number9robotic on Oct 15th 2024 at 5:55:34 AM

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