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Is SurroundedByIdiots limited to villains, and / or to relationships with minions and servants?

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Aquillion Since: Jan, 2001
#1: Oct 4th 2024 at 7:20:53 PM

I was going to add a brief note to the disambiguation paragraph in Surrounded by Idiots clearing up its connection to Only Sane Man when I realized I'm not sure what that connection is... because the description for Surrounded by Idiots makes it out to be a trope for evil villains who have incompetent minions, but the examples are full of just, like, smart people in a group who are convinced everyone else in the group (or the world) is an idiot, regardless of whether they're villains and regardless of whether they're minions.

Assuming it is actually supposed to be limited to villains with stupid minions, I think the problem may be that it is also a Stock Phrase that is very, very frequently used outside of that context - the example list is full of heroes or sitcom characters or the like who use that phrase.

(Relatedly, what is the connection between these tropes? I feel like they're closely-related enough that they should briefly mention each other in their disambiguation paragraphs at the end, in order to point people who might have the wrong trope at a more appropriate place, but I'm not 100% certain how to say it because I'm unsure what the boundaries of Surrounded by Idiots are.)

Edited by Aquillion on Oct 4th 2024 at 7:24:17 AM

MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#2: Oct 5th 2024 at 4:17:24 AM

What makes this especially interesting is that the original YKTTW started out as primarily being about the villain being unable to pick a good right-hand man, with the problem being as much about them being The Starscream as simply incompetent. There was some talk about mooks and henchmen as well, but they didn't become the focus of the trope until the title was suggested, which was said to specifically come from The Lion King (1994).

Concerns about misuse for Only Sane Man have been brought up on the discussion page, but since Only Sane Man is actually way more popular (and two years older), it would be worth considering what elements the misused examples have that would have led the tropers adding them to think this trope was more appropriate than that one. It's of course entirely possible those tropers hadn't encountered Only Sane Man somehow, but if I had to guess, they may have thought Only Sane Man is about someone who is surrounded by idiots, while Surrounded by Idiots is about someone who only thinks so. Alternately, Only Sane Man's Example as a Thesis talks about characters with bizarre quirks, so they may have thought this trope is when most people are just plain stupid, not insane. So this probably needs TRS, but the usage check would need to pay attention to these and other fine distinctions and the debate might end up centering around what the trope should be here.

(To actually answer your question, the general principle is that, when in doubt, go with the description; examples may be misuse and laconics have a tendency to be wrong. But in my view, even the description may warrant closer inspection to see if it's badly/misleadingly worded for the actual concept it's going for, or maybe it's confusingly worded in general, or it may have been unilaterally edited in the past, or perhaps no one, not even the original sponsor, used it as specifically as the description implies. These are all general scenarios, I'm not saying any of them apply to this page, I'm just explaining why I didn't just say this at the start and instead went on about the original YKTTW and such.)

DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3: Oct 5th 2024 at 5:58:30 AM

"Competent villain with incompetent minions" is a trope.

"Character thinks they're smarter than other people" isn't.

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#5: Oct 5th 2024 at 10:45:55 AM

"Character thinks they're smarter than other people" isn't.

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#6: Oct 5th 2024 at 6:00:39 PM

I had assumed the trope was about someone remarking on this, not the situation in general. Something that typically from a villain, since heroes are expected to have some respect for their colleagues even if they don't always get along, but it would not be out of place in a Work Com. That's the problem with dialogue trope titles.

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Aquillion Since: Jan, 2001
#7: Oct 6th 2024 at 7:32:46 AM

Yeah, we do have a bunch of connected tropes dedicated to people who are or who constantly believe they are the smartest person in the room; someone who believes they are an Insufferable Genius or suffering from Academia Elitism, while the Only Sane Man often is. Those tropes should probably be listed in the see-also paragraph to nudge people to more appropriate tropes for people who just use the phrase or clearly have the outlook exemplified by the trope, but I'm unsure how to word it.

(I do think "character believes that they're surrounded by idiots" is a genuine characterization trope, but it's probably covered by one of those... though not precisely. There's definitely a character archetype that clearly feels they're surrounded by idiots without necessarily being a villain or the idiots being minions, but it's probably just Insufferable Genius.)

Edited by Aquillion on Oct 9th 2024 at 12:11:18 PM

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