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The Sociopath: What's a Proper Example?

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#1: Sep 20th 2024 at 11:47:47 AM

On a whim, I did Sandbox.The Sociopath Wick Check to see how it was being used. And while I admit that it was more skewed to personality/symptoms than "bad guy does bad thing" than I thought, it still collected a good amount of those "Bob is evil and runs over kittens"-type stuff. Additionally, there were more examples of characters simply having one or two traits than having the laundry list, more specifically focusing on a lack of remorse / a lack of emotion as the main recurring element.

So this all got me thinking. What elements are required to write a good example for The Sociopath? Is the trope about characters who have the "checklist" traits as I initially believed (making it more about the stereotypical sociopath than anything), is it more generally focused on "bad people lack empathy"? Do purely action-based examples count, or are they misusing it for generic "pure evil" stuff? I don't want to jump the gun and assume my check is showing an actual problem, so I'm presenting the issue for discussion.

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Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#2: Sep 20th 2024 at 1:31:55 PM

For me a clear example of a sociopathic character is one that has purely selfish motives, they may have relations with others but these are very superficial and transactional, and they have no sense of morality. Other villains may justify to themselves what they are doing, or may have a Moral Myopia to certain people, but a sociopath doesn't even go that first step. Their sense of right and wrong isn't twisted, or shallow, or selective, it just isn't there.

Now real people are complex, and this is something difficult to diagnose in practice, but that is the fictional template I would use.

There is a tendency for sociopaths in fiction to fall into one of two unrealistic categories: they are diabolical masterminds that manipulate everyone around them with ease, or they are mindless killers with no rhyme or reason to their violence. I would point to John Fitzgerald in The Revenant (the novel, I don't know about the film) for a grounded portrayal of a sociopath: he is intelligent and charismatic enough to get out of trouble many times, with no reluctance to lie, but his reckless behaviour keeps getting him into trouble.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#3: Sep 20th 2024 at 1:34:48 PM

Yeah, I can agree that the trope is about the "sociopath template" as you put it; real life people are far more complex and the "sociopath checklist" has been called out as questionable psychology, but it's what people use when crafting sociopaths for fiction.

Part of the reason I've been thinking about this is that I wrote my own example for The Sociopath recently (for Film.Rocketman 2019 if you're curious) and I stuck pretty closely to describing the "sociopath checklist traits" that are displayed. But reading other examples, they focused more on "character is evil, sadistic, and remorseless". Even many of the "full checklist" examples in my wick-check merely list traits rather than exploring how the character actually displays them.

The categories you mentioned are interesting and certainly play a role in how people see the trope, since yeah there's definitely some stereotypes at play.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 20th 2024 at 4:35:25 AM

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TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#4: Sep 23rd 2024 at 8:18:56 AM

For me, a sociopath is someone who does things regardless of their morality (or lack thereof), does not feel any genuine remorse for their actions, does not learn from their mistakes or take responsibility for them, has a Lack of Empathy (obviously), and has few, if any, genuine connections. And if they do have some affection for someone, that relationship is, at best, All Take and No Give. Oddly, a good example is technically a good guy. Sylens from Horizon: Zero Dawn and Forbidden West is a good example of a sociopath that is written in a more nuanced manner (he does all manner of selfish things with horrific consequences he isn't at all sorry for and would do again, but he at least helps Aloy fix his messes and has good intentions very deep down).

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Sep 23rd 2024 at 11:20:36 AM

Once Upon A Time.
Coachpill Taxidermy (he/him) from Gen Z Since: Aug, 2022 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Taxidermy (he/him)
#5: Sep 23rd 2024 at 9:33:19 AM

I've always seen the most basic definition of a sociopath as someone who has no real sense of fault or fear, but fosters an environment where they can get away with showing an ambiguous form of it to advance their own position. They can be dirty cowards, but the ones that are tend to see their fear as kind of a "bubble" that only they have access to, which shields them from things that are actually much scarier/dangerous. A lot of the most successful sociopaths are Lawful Evil, if that helps put a "proper" example into perspective.

Johns from The Chronicles of Riddick (2004) is a good example of a lawful sociopath who, despite being craven as all hell, is high-functioning and incredibly competent at what he does; he's the most successful bounty hunter in the Marine Military and has a record of 17 out of 17 captured convicts, which only gets tarnished once Riddick comes along. He realizes he's totally out of his league with Riddick but manages to convince him to keep him alive for a long while, his one major oversight being not killing him while he was chained up, since killing Riddick in that position would've went against the warden's orders and ruined his bounty hunting rep.

On the other hand, while it's not technically incompatible, most sociopaths who are fearless (at least when it comes to media I've consumed) tend to be neutral or chaotic, since their job is usually something more self-employed and expansive. There are too many specific examples for me to really pin down, but it's usually more of a broad range than just "pure evil".

Edited by Coachpill on Sep 23rd 2024 at 12:33:53 PM

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#6: Sep 23rd 2024 at 11:47:38 AM

To be clear, I'm not asking what a Sociopath is. I'm asking what would make a valid example of the trope as a trope.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 23rd 2024 at 2:47:54 PM

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TheMountainKing Since: Jul, 2016
#7: Sep 23rd 2024 at 10:26:17 PM

From what I can tell, the trope is supposed to be about characters who fit the "sociopathy checklist". It's basically a page for armchair diagnosing characters, in a way that doesn't seem to have mush real value as a trope.

There's also a separate issue in the fact that "sociopathy" isn't actually considered a valid diagnosis by most psychiatrists (even our page admits it's from an outdated edition of the DSM), so it's armchair diagnosing with a disease that doesn't exist.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#8: Sep 24th 2024 at 2:17:15 AM

Eh, I get what you mean, but writers do use the Sociopath stuff all the time to design characters. Many being explicitly called out in-universe so it's not just fan speculation

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MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#9: Sep 24th 2024 at 4:20:12 AM

This TRS thread (which you participated in!) attempted to come up with a more concrete definition but ended up clocked and locked, following on from this cleanup thread. The page was later reverted to a 2012 version of the description, which seems to have been a result of this TRS thread, and locked - both times that that version was added, it was to keep the description from being a Wall of Text. There was also this thread trying to sort out the difference with Complete Monster, and the original YKTTW; those last two links might best point to a possible answer to your question.

Edited by MorganWick on Sep 24th 2024 at 4:20:43 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#10: Sep 24th 2024 at 6:33:58 AM

I genuinely forgot about that discussion, wow.

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#11: Sep 24th 2024 at 6:34:23 AM

Dupe

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 24th 2024 at 9:34:34 AM

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TheMountainKing Since: Jul, 2016
#12: Sep 24th 2024 at 10:49:38 AM

[up][up][up][up] Some use it as an in-story identifier, but a lot of examples are just a character being written as evil and aligning with some of the sociopath traits as a coincidence. In that case it's pure armchair diagnosis.

Coachpill Taxidermy (he/him) from Gen Z Since: Aug, 2022 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Taxidermy (he/him)
#13: Sep 24th 2024 at 11:36:09 AM

Yeah, I've definitely seen that; it's kind of similar to the issue(s) with Seven Deadly Sins. I do think it's more obvious when writers are intending for the audience to see the character as one in cases where they don't really have a primary personality trait that happens to be stereotypical of a sociopath, like The Mad Hatter or Consummate Liar.

Edited by Coachpill on Sep 24th 2024 at 4:01:35 AM

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#14: Sep 24th 2024 at 12:06:16 PM

I'm not saying it NEVER happens. I agree, it's a problem. I wonder if we should restrict it to examples that are clearly intended.

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themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#15: Sep 25th 2024 at 8:12:41 PM

This is starting to sound like a TRS problem, particularly if we want to restrict this trope.

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#16: Sep 26th 2024 at 10:27:54 AM

I may re-arrange my wicks in a new section of the sandbox to see how many involve outright diagnoses. It would feel like a lot to restrict it to cases where someone is called a sociopath in-universe since I know a lot of writers intend their characters to be sociopaths without actually labeling them as such, but... I do agree that the arm-chair diagnosing needs to stop.

Before that though, how do we feel about the stuff that focuses more on action than personality/symptoms/etc?

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amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#17: Sep 26th 2024 at 10:55:52 PM

The Sociopath is similar to Stereotypical Nerd in that both are (meant to be) character archetypes defined by a collection of core traits that are emphasized to different degrees depending on the work. And I'd argue it shares the same issues as the old Nerd page did before it was converted to the Stereotypical Nerd page (trs thread here): "people are treating the trope less like a defined stereotype and more like a personality trait." This has a lot to do with casual usage of "sociopathic" as an adjective to basically mean cruel or heartless in the same way "nerdy" is used colloquially to mean "has geeky interests". There's also the issue of people conflating sociopathic with psychopathic, which is casually used to mean crazy, erratic, unstable, and violent. That is particularly problematic because I'd argue that is almost the opposite of the sociopath archetype as portrayed in media, which I'd summarize as:

  1. cold and stoic due to a Lack of Empathy. This doesn't mean they can't feign affability, but 9 times out of 10 a character will point out how superficial or fake they seem or the narrative will have the sociopathic character drop the act alone to reveal their true nature. Nor does this preclude any emotional outbursts from time to time; as The Stoic's page says:The Stoic sometimes displays emotion when under extreme stress or in other highly emotional situations, but their usual repertoire consists of mild boredom, detached interest, Dull Surprise or dignified disdain
  2. asociality / misanthropy portrayed as a hatred or disgust of other people born from a sense of superiority, up to and often including being an outright Misanthrope Supreme. They might have one or two "friends", but those relationships will be shallow, viewed as exceptions, or framed as them being "useful" to the character
  3. a tendency towards lying and manipulation to get what they want as "what they want" tends to be at the expense of someone else
  4. a casual attitude towards violence, manifesting in either engaging in violence themselves, disinterest/non-chalance when violence is happening around them, or violent ideations. however unlike a psychopath who is usually portrayed as gleefully and excitedly engaging in violence like a Blood Knight or Combat Sadomasochist, the sociopath's use of violence will be portrayed as careful, efficient, methodical, and/or planned out to emphasize their emotional detachment.

In terms of centrality to the stereotype, I'd say 4/1 > 2/3.

Those 4 traits are basically how The Sociopath is defined currently, though I think the description needs to emphasize the stoicism/emotionally distant aspect more since to me, that's what separates the archetypcal sociopaths from the stereotypical psychopaths. I think the current definition mostly gets it right the same way that Nerd's definition mostly got it right. We didn't really change nerd's definition when we TRS'd it, just clarified the traits more and renamed it to better communicate that this is not meant to cover all characters who may possibly get called a "nerd", but a specific stereotypical portrayal of nerdy characters. Similarly, The Sociopath is not meant as an accurate depiction of sociopathy or antisocial personality disorder (ironically, as described, this is closer to what actual psychopathy is than actual sociopathy), but the media's reductive and caricaturized idea of a sociopath. I've admittedly been keeping tabs on Stereotypical Nerd's wicks to avoid Trope Decay again and the wicks are doing pretty well with avoiding the over application of it that made me bring it to TRS in the first place. Same can be and likely should be done with The Sociopath: rewrite the description a touch and rename it to something like "Archetypal/Stereotypical Sociopath" or "Sociopath Archetype/Stereotype"

Edited by amathieu13 on Sep 27th 2024 at 7:43:08 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#18: Sep 26th 2024 at 11:02:53 PM

That's a pretty good run-down of the situation. It's starting to look like TRS is necessary, though a redefinition may not be. I wonder if a good cleanup could do the job, but then the description needs work, and people need to stop using it for "Axe-Crazy bad guy"-type stuff / Armchair diagnoses.

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themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#19: Sep 27th 2024 at 10:48:34 AM

[up][up] Incidentally Stereotypical Sociopath was my proposal as well. Excellent work Amathieu — I agree that TRS is the way to go here.

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#20: Sep 27th 2024 at 11:12:51 AM

Okay, I'll add it to the queue and do a sandbox write-up.

Edit: Done. OP is in Sandbox.War Jay 77. Thoughts?

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 27th 2024 at 2:32:36 PM

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themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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