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Warp That Aesop - should we do anything about it?

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themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#1: Sep 4th 2024 at 12:51:31 PM

(If this belongs in Wiki Talk, please move it there. Didn't know where to put it so I dropped it in Trope Talk.)

Anyway — there was an ATT about DarthWiki.Warp That Aesop recently, where it was noted that some examples weren't even about aesops, they were just "complaining and character bashing", to quote OP ~Ms CC 22 — and at least one comment from ~Ferot_Dreadnaught indicated that it might not even be worth having. On the other hand, ~War Jay 77 argued that it is being misused to complain, and is otherwise a joke page.

So I'm bringing that discussion and pinging these people here to ask: should something be done about WTA, or should we leave it alone and just clean it up?

(Paging ~Amonimus , ~Doktorvon Eurotrash , and ~Melancholy Utopia here as well to see if they have any thoughts on the matter, seeing as they were ATT participants.)

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
MsCC22 Since: Aug, 2022
#2: Sep 4th 2024 at 12:52:40 PM

There is already a cleanup thread, but it doesn’t seem active.

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#3: Sep 4th 2024 at 12:54:09 PM

[up] I'm aware, I phrased it poorly, sorry.

I meant should we continue using that thread vs. take more drastic action. I wasn't clear.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4: Sep 4th 2024 at 12:56:00 PM

I have no strong feelings on Warp That Aesop.

I realise it's in its nature to be snarky and negative, but we should at least clean up the blatant misuse (for example, in the ATT in question, a couple of entries were just slamming Disney's marketing decisions, not the content of the film — in other words, they weren't related to an Aesop by any stretch).

[nja]: In short, I personally think cleanup is all that's needed.

Edited by DoktorvonEurotrash on Sep 4th 2024 at 12:56:51 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5: Sep 4th 2024 at 12:57:14 PM

Yeah, so it's a joke page for warping things that are not aesops into being aesops; that's what the description on DarthWiki.Warp That Aesop is.

I don't think this needs anything beyond better cleaning. Better enforcing of the few rules it does have.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 4th 2024 at 3:57:37 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#6: Sep 4th 2024 at 12:58:11 PM

I also think it should be "joke aesops". Something like a counter-advice based things coincidentally working out, like "you should try swimming in nuclear waste to gain superpowers". I don't mind negativity, but there's a difference between complaining and snark.

We generally just let Darth and JFF be own thing, but I've always was for keeping them under control.

Edited by Amonimus on Sep 4th 2024 at 10:59:02 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
MelancholyUtopia Amelia from Sweden Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Amelia
#7: Sep 4th 2024 at 1:38:14 PM

I realize my phrasing of "bashing characters is the point" to be excessive; I retract that in particular.

That said I do not think it's fair to remove certain examples just because you personally find them "offensive" even if they don't break the rules. I read through the examples that were removed and I didn't think they were complaining, just wording things sarcastically and twisting the aesop as this trope intends. Even so, I don't think massively cleaning up entire sections is the solution either. If a very particular example is something you feel don't belong on the page, either rephrase it or delete it only.

To be clear, I have had my examples removed before, and looking at it again, I stood behind their deletion because they were earnestly breaking the rules. I just try to enforce that standard on everything else related to the trope.

I realize this trope might not be that "important" per se, as it's built on YMMV and subjectivity more than regular ones, but I find enjoyment reading through and adding to it because I have dark humour, the game is fun and seeing tons of examples being removed for being "offensive" is kind of ironic as it is part of the game. To me it feels like asking a morbid question on r/Morbid Questions on reddit and people feel offended by the ultimatum questioned. People are going to want to share jokes that might come off as "mean" to some, but as long as they don't break the rules (such as referring to meta information, addressing other tropers' examples or generally complaining about the work itself, which I agree should be removed), leave them be.

I echo the above comments that cleanup is necessary, but only when it counts, as I just addressed.

Edited by MelancholyUtopia on Sep 4th 2024 at 10:49:55 AM

Sub-Zero: Another Outworld perversion. Skarlet: You're the one staring, Sub-Zero. Sub-Zero: I am assessing your weaknesses.
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#8: Sep 4th 2024 at 1:39:06 PM

If Warp is supposed to be a joke, than the problem is Poe's Law. It's impossible to tell/people are failing to realize they are not supposed to be taken seriously.

An Aesop went through TRS which decided they were meant to be interpreted (intentional. Aesops being sub-trope) thus YMMV and disambiguated. Warp is a YMMV of a YMMV already too broad/subjective to allow examples.

And as interpreted Warp is never used on Aesops/lessons they like/agree with, only on what they dislike/disagree thus complaining or indistinguishable. (Is there any examples of Warp otherwise?)

My first question it Warp supposed to be limited to intentional Aesops? And if so how is it different than Alternate Aesop Interpretation?

If we want to keep warp despite the issues, I believe we need the mandatory formatting rules like used by Dethroning Moment of Suck and What an Idiot! that keep them viable/constructive despite being complaining.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#9: Sep 4th 2024 at 1:41:31 PM

Again, Ferot, Warped isn't for legit aesops in the first place. The page clearly explains what the actual game is.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#10: Sep 4th 2024 at 1:42:17 PM

For the record, I'm actually in favor of maintaining the cleanup thread and not taking further action — I just felt this was a discussion worth having given the raised concerns.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#11: Sep 4th 2024 at 2:05:10 PM

[up][up]Understood.

But now I'm confused then which of the rules were the Disney examples that started this conversation removed for violating? Only some violated the no real life rule

I feel part the issue is the current rules are formatted in a way that's not as clear as it could be (such as split into bullets). Is that more a question for the existing cleanup thread?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#12: Sep 4th 2024 at 2:07:25 PM

The rule that was claimed to be violated was the complaining rule.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#13: Sep 4th 2024 at 2:17:12 PM

[up]In that case, how did they cross the line from warping to complaining? How can you tell the difference?

I believe the point of the rules is to be that line/how to tell the difference. The alternate "don't use on what you dislike" seems unenforceable.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Sep 4th 2024 at 2:38:22 AM

MsCC22 Since: Aug, 2022
#14: Sep 5th 2024 at 7:13:22 PM

The way you can tell that something veers into complaining is that you can’t really spot an Aesop being warped.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#15: Sep 5th 2024 at 7:25:02 PM

Again, the game is not to warp actual aesops.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#16: Sep 6th 2024 at 8:52:42 AM

[up]So maybe the issue is a Non-Indicative Name?

Maybe "Warp Into an Aesop" or "Invent a Warped Aesop" would better convey the intent/make clear the sarcastic intent to filter out misuse?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Sep 6th 2024 at 8:53:48 AM

UchuuFlamenco Since: Jul, 2017
#17: Sep 6th 2024 at 10:57:54 AM

I feel we're ignoring one of the problems the Disney examples had: Wherever out-of-universe/meta examples counted or not. I feel that's worthy of being discussed.

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#18: Sep 6th 2024 at 12:11:15 PM

As I've mentioned I think these are inapplicable. If this was a real trope I'd even argue for NRLEP.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#19: Sep 6th 2024 at 12:11:45 PM

I mean, yeah I think meta stuff is almost always just a no-go for these things.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#20: Sep 6th 2024 at 2:39:37 PM

So was the only issue with the Disney examples that they were meta/real life bashing? Or was there other problems that put them over the line?

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