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PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#226: Aug 15th 2024 at 11:40:48 AM

The only things I can think of that he's been in semi-recently was the latest Fast and Furious movie (which started filming before the controversy) and Coyote vs Acme, which was infamously put into permanent limbo because of Warner Brothers tax writeoff nonsense.

Edited by PhiSat on Aug 15th 2024 at 11:41:08 AM

Oissu!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#227: Aug 15th 2024 at 11:41:51 AM

Uh Peacemaker (which was enough of a hit he got an acclaimed show and a mortal konbat apperance) , TMNT Mutant mayhem, barbie?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#228: Aug 15th 2024 at 11:42:34 AM

This thread isn't the place to discuss Cena's career; we are simply using it as an example of what is and is not acceptable to trope.

  • If a sports figure acts in, writes, directs, or produces creative media, and they have a scandal that sabotages that career, it's tropable.
  • If a sports figure just has a sports career, but does not engage in any creative media, their scandals are not tropable.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 15th 2024 at 2:43:41 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#229: Aug 15th 2024 at 11:43:15 AM

The main reason I'm for restricting examples that aren't media related is because most of them are just things that are guaranteed to be controversial at some point (especially politicians and businesses) and an invitation to list random controversies. There have been attempts to make entire countries or cities OBC because something bad happened there and that feels off mission. Plus IMO the point of OBC is that the creative and entertaining merits can't be discussed without the controversy immediately coming up, so something that doesn't really have creative merits may not fit that definition.

I personally don't mind OBC examples for most websites, because I do consider many websites we have to be tropeable in that they either review creative media or host it, but if it's already decided I guess I can't change it.

That said, I wouldn't be as open to restricting sporting examples as those are also people who entertain for a public, but have their merits overshadowed by something they do. And many examples come up in fiction, such as OJ Simpson or Lance Armstrong, so it's going to be hard to limit.

This isn't a trope about narrative as much as others, more about its public perception to viewing audiences, so I'd count anything that has an audience like sports or news media, but not random companies who mostly limit themselves to impressing stockholders.

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 15th 2024 at 2:46:45 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#230: Aug 15th 2024 at 11:49:37 AM

[up] Not to sound argumentative, but websites do not "review content"; people do. If a website acts as a brand, such that the reviews it publishes are credited to the site as opposed to the individuals it employs, that's one thing, but 4chan (for example) is not a brand that authors or publishes tropable content.

A site that merely hosts content and does not act as a creator, director, producer, publisher, or is otherwise credited as its own brand in said content is not tropable either.


While it is true that professional sports are presented to the public for entertainment, they are still not fictional media. There is no author, no script, no narrative intent. Athletes are not actors and are not fictionalizing themselves for public consumption. Therefore, they are real people and may not have tropes applied to them.

I refuse to negotiate on this point. Yes, sports have marketing and other presentation elements that attempt to create narrative tropes out of the events that are being portrayed, but that is at best a veneer, and in any event the athletes are not actors being paid to appear in these narratives.

Marketing is tropable, as always, but the events themselves are not.

Edit: To clarify, sports figures may be paid to appear in advertising, and so Xavier Xylophonist's career as a mascot for Asbestos-Free Cereal is at least hypothetically tropable.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 15th 2024 at 3:59:44 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#231: Aug 15th 2024 at 11:56:57 AM

Saying there's no narrative around sports is kind of silly. Of course there is. There's sports casters, there's manufactured drama, there's rivalries. But I don't really care about listing sports personalities enough to fight for their inclusion.

Oissu!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#232: Aug 15th 2024 at 12:00:47 PM

Unless you're arguing that professional sports (besides wrestling, natch) have a script that is written in advance or are improvised based on a pre-determined outcome, they are not narrative media. This is inarguable fact.

Yes, the marketing attempts to frame them with a narrative, but that is at best in the same line as how we handle documentaries. Either way, the participants (inclusive of players, coaches, officials, and so on) are real people, not actors playing fictional roles, and thus may not be troped.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 15th 2024 at 4:06:28 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#233: Aug 15th 2024 at 12:04:57 PM

So basically the upshot is that the "prohibit examples about people who are unrelated to creative works" option is already the site policy and doesn't need to be voted on.

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#234: Aug 15th 2024 at 12:10:53 PM

Since we already have UsefulNotes.National Football League Notorious Figures, could we have a Useful Notes page for notable sports controversies?

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#236: Aug 15th 2024 at 12:54:23 PM

If real life examples are limited to actors, writers, and production companies, that sounds like such a limited amount of RL things quality I question if Real Life is the/an appropriate namespace for such.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#237: Aug 15th 2024 at 12:57:32 PM

This is TV Tropes, not Real Life Tropes. I didn't think we needed reminding of that.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#238: Aug 15th 2024 at 1:21:03 PM

[nja]Wrong thread.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Aug 15th 2024 at 1:31:39 AM

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#239: Aug 15th 2024 at 2:33:13 PM

[up][up][up]The Real Life "work page" is written like it's meant to be a joke, but it's fallen victim to Poe's Law over the years. It probably needs to get moved to Just for Fun to make that clear, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

[down]Ah, my bad.

Edited by StarSword on Aug 15th 2024 at 7:07:20 AM

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#240: Aug 15th 2024 at 2:42:13 PM

I think that was referring to OvershadowedByControversy.Real Life.

Within that article, the Actors and Other Creators folders are probably okay, as long as they otherwise fit the trope. Heads of State and Politicians may need to be checked, as do Events, Places, and Other, as none of them have to do with creative media.

OvershadowedByControversy.Academy Awards Ceremonies is something I'd like to cut for being little more than gossip, but since awards ceremonies are at least adjacent to creative media, I'll allow some discussion about it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#241: Aug 15th 2024 at 3:29:21 PM

I think that page needs a cleaning because a lot of entries seem to consist of any controversy the Academy faced during that season, even if it was overshadowed by one major one (I mean come on, how can you list anything but The Slap for 2022). After that I think it's fair. The Academy Awards are an artistic event directly tied to media.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#242: Aug 15th 2024 at 3:37:51 PM

I could have sworn that we decided that Media Notes articles could not have trope examples. Checking up on it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#243: Aug 15th 2024 at 3:47:03 PM

According to What Goes Where on the Wiki, Useful Notes (and by extension Media Notes) may not have examples. That includes the main articles and their subpages. So, everything on Academy Awards Ceremonies must go. Also, why do we have that and Academy Award? Come on, people!

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 15th 2024 at 6:47:12 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
fireheart (Don’t ask)
#244: Aug 15th 2024 at 4:29:25 PM

[up] Because people are that determined to ensure the thing they don't like gets a badge of dishonor and remains permanently on the forefront of people's minds so there's no opportunity for the "offender" to redeem themselves?

Since Useful Notes and Media Notes can't have examples, does that mean we can submit that notorious sports star page to the Cut List?

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#245: Aug 15th 2024 at 4:46:21 PM

[up]Don't know, don't care. Beyond the scope. Can we get back to talking about the Overshadowed by Controversy page now?

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#246: Aug 15th 2024 at 5:35:27 PM

Heads up: started a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss policy for Platform and Media Notes pages, so discussion about whether they can/should be allowed to have trope examples can go there.

Edited by Twiddler on Aug 15th 2024 at 6:01:21 AM

Lymantria Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph from Toronto Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
#247: Aug 15th 2024 at 5:38:02 PM

[up] If that thread is about whether Media Notes are tropable, should we wait for it to decide on something before cutting the relevant OBC pages?

Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
jandn2014 SMILE! from somewhere in Connecticut Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Hiding
SMILE!
#248: Aug 15th 2024 at 6:12:36 PM

Crowner options proposed here seem fine to me, but I again have to ask: what do we do about the rest of the misuse? We've spent much of this thread discussing political/sports/other real life examples, and while those are an issue, sure, most of the bigger issues shown in the wick check seemingly haven't been touched upon. One-fifth were related to a creator's behavior rather than the work itself, and another fifth didn't truly overshadowed their respective works. How do we solve those?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#249: Aug 15th 2024 at 6:19:25 PM

One-fifth were related to a creator's behavior rather than the work itself

At the moment this is not actually misuse according to the definition and not all of us are convinced it's something that should be misuse.

and another fifth didn't truly overshadowed their respective works.

This is the type of thing that can and is handled adequately by our current cleanup; it's not really something there's a solid fix for.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
MissConduct (Septatroper)
#250: Aug 15th 2024 at 6:58:33 PM

I'm still not sure what makes talking about real life crimes in OBC entries, even if they are related to works, different from RL troping in some NRLEP tropes. For instance, Casting Couch is an NRLEP trope, so you could not put on that page's Real Life folder "Mr. X was famous for using the Casting Couch to exploit young actresses", even if this is uncontestedly the truth. But you could bypass that restriction by going to the YMMV page for Mr. X's Big Movie and say "Overshadowed by Controversy: This movie is Overshadowed by Controversy because Mr. X was famous for using the Casting Couch to exploit young actresses". I really don't get this double standard.

Trope Repair Shop: OvershadowedByControversy
20th Sep '24 9:32:11 AM

Crown Description:

It was agreed to restrict Overshadowed By Controversy with this criteria. However, it was unclear what exactly "production relevant examples" meant, and there were other complications as well. This crowner is being run to clear up the confusion and address concerns before we move forward.

Vote UP for yes, DOWN for no.

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