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Why aren't Ambiguously Gay/Bi YMMV if most examples are based on fan opinions?

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SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#26: Aug 10th 2024 at 8:54:18 AM

I don't think we need to split Ambiguously Gay because we already have YMMV tropes that cover "Audience thinks a character is gay". The issue is if the problem can be resolved with a dedicated clean up or if we have to rename the trope into something that's more clear.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#27: Aug 10th 2024 at 10:31:24 AM

Ho Yay examples tend to involve people thinking a character is gay for another specific character, or that two characters are involved with each other, but the key part is that they focus on external fanbases seeing a character as queer. It's the same division between Ambiguous Gender and Ambiguous Gender Identity (in-universe tropes) versus Trans Audience Interpretation (an audience reaction).

For those who are confused Ambiguously Gay and Ambiguously Bi are typically centered on solitary characters, where editors can cite specific instances within the text itself (as opposed to speculation from fans) which could be construed as a character being queer. Many examples will include moments of nonspecific attraction or comments from other characters; they need not be about validating a specific ship as Ho Yay tends to do. Since it's centered on in-universe statements, the audience's thoughts on it are not considered in such entries.

The vast majority of examples I've run across since the tropes were established have typically remained in good faith and stuck to instances in the text that can be seen through a fairly objective and neutral lens as indicative of queerness. I've had to move a few to YMMV but it was largely because they were operating outside of the trope's main scope of focusing on the work itself. And speaking as someone who is queer, most efforts to remove these entries altogether come from people who are actively opposed to the reading of such characters as queer and are thus operating with an agenda.

In the past Ambiguously Gay was based on camp stereotypes, but I had it cleaned up in TRS to focus on implicit instances of the character showing same-sex attraction, or other characters commenting on it.

In other cases where the censors may not have permitted any overt implications of homosexual attraction, creators would sometimes deliberately utilize stereotypical traits as a way of Getting Crap Past the Radar and implying a character's homosexuality. For example a male character might lisp, show and have an interest in fashion and musicals, have no apparent interest in the opposite sex, and live in a single-bedroom apartment with one of their "roommates". In modern sociological theory, these characters are described as being "queer-coded".

This particular permutation of Ambiguously Gay has largely become a Broken Trope in domestic media due to contemporary media being more open to depiction of explicitly gay characters, many of whom don't necessarily conform to stereotypes. However, it still lives on in some kinds of media aimed at international audiences, due to certain countries having more stringent anti-LGBT censorship than others.

This is a remnant of what the trope used to be like.

Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 10th 2024 at 10:38:36 AM

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#28: Aug 10th 2024 at 10:33:53 AM

Yeah, Ho Yay is basically about gay shipping when you get right down to it.

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themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#29: Aug 10th 2024 at 10:38:54 AM

Of note is that in addition to the previously noted Ambiguously Gay TRS from 2020, Ho Yay had its own failed TRS in 2019, if it's at all relevant.

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AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#30: Aug 10th 2024 at 10:50:36 AM

Ultimately all tropes are YMMV and based on fan opinion to some extent, or else I'd be having fierce arguments with most examples of Ms. Fanservice and Mr. Fanservice, but what sets them apart is their scope. I don't see why in-universe queer tropes need to be scrutinized so heavily in particular.

Tacoyogo Since: Aug, 2022
#31: Oct 19th 2024 at 2:49:30 PM

Sorry to bump but another thing which I feel constitutes misuse of this trope is the *automatic* mention of the character never having displayed attraction to the opposite sex as though it's a conscious writer decision, even when it's never lampshaded in the show itself. Now if it were YMMV, I guess that'd be understandable, but including that in a mainspace trope feels like shoehorning if it's never commented on in-universe.

SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#32: Oct 19th 2024 at 3:01:40 PM

[up][up] But Mr. Fanservice and Ms. Fanservice are not based off of fan opinion. They are defined as a character who is used as the primary source of Fanservice for the show. Any example that's one troper going "I find this character hot" would be misuse.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#33: Oct 21st 2024 at 9:08:26 AM

[up][up][up]Imo they're scrutinized a lot because, on the internet at least, people can be pretty protective of their "take" on a character and that can sometimes supercede the reality of the actual work.

tbh I think this should probably just be subject to some cleanup to make sure examples are based on actual evidence within the work. Ho Yay and its derivatives cover the YMMV side of it.

Khoshekh6 Since: May, 2022
#34: Oct 21st 2024 at 12:32:46 PM

Nvm

Edited by Khoshekh6 on Oct 21st 2024 at 12:34:49 PM

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