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Measuring Poverty in Pottery Barn Poor

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selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#1: Jul 23rd 2024 at 8:34:43 AM

Pottery Barn Poor is a trope about a character or more who are implied/described as poor, but have great living conditions, that don't back up that claim.

However, how can we judge what's considered "poor" or just our stereotyped misconceptions about poverty.

Of course, I know that if you live in a Kardashians' like house, that means you're wealthy, esp if you have a huge house, a walk-in closet, many rooms, and maids.

However, people treat characters that have iPhones, spacious space, a car, etc. as not qualified as poor in media. Although, I have seen many people say just bc they own Mac products and have a car, that doesn't make them rich, some of them are struggling to pay for them.

I had a character that's treated as poor In-Universe, however, he lives in an excellent apartment, imo. But at the same time, it's not that fancy to the point where he had to do part-time jobs to support his family. So, does he qualify?

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DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#2: Jul 23rd 2024 at 9:13:16 AM

[up]Yikes... good points. Unfortunate Implications abound, given that in Real Life, those are the kind of arguments used to cut people's financial support.

I don't know how to fix it.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#3: Jul 23rd 2024 at 10:16:04 AM

I mean, it's essentially when characters are described as poor but nothing about their lifestyle or homes support that claim. Keep in mind that many writers are not aiming to create a nuanced vision of real world poverty; fiction can be pretty black and white, heavy handed, with this sort of thing and that doesn't make this trope invalid or ambiguous in my eyes.

It's simply a disconnect between what the writer claims and what they shows. If the story actually gets into the depths of their financial situation I wouldn't say it's Pottery Barn Poor anymore since it does become an intentionally nuanced take. But many writers again don't attempt this and just say "they're so poor in their million dollar NYC penthouse" with no further exploration. It's essentially an Informed Attribute.

A trope can have Unfortunate Implications without being something we have to "fix".

Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 23rd 2024 at 1:28:01 PM

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EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#4: Jul 23rd 2024 at 10:56:16 AM

It's like "Friends" Rent Control and Living in a Furniture Store where there is a disconnect between the internal efforts of the work to portray certain living conditions and the frame of reference of individual audience members. Someone who grew up in the welfare projects would see anyone with their own home as middle class regardless of cleanliness or hoarding issues.

The truth is that depicting true destitution is rarely the intention of the work because that would be too depressing and lacking in purpose. Shows like Raising Hope or It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia make some effort to show the characters in squallor, but are more focused on the Zany Scheme, "Fawlty Towers" Plot, showing them as Conditioned to Accept Horror or is a Rags to Riches story.

There is also value in not taking it too far, showing them with relatable issues beyond financial stability and preventing them from becoming the embodiment of Poverty Porn.

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#5: Jul 23rd 2024 at 12:45:09 PM

[up][up][up] We can improve the description.

Nothing is cheap, nothing is worn and grimy from use, nothing is broken, everything looks new and out of the box.

This doesn't imply poverty, as you don't have to live in a dirty, neglected, unmaintained house. This is if you're waaay piss-poor, in a developing country, or a war torn country.

Also, this part, too, maybe?

You're watching a movie or sitcom series. The characters are in their spacious home with their nice new, trendy furniture. They have a TV, computer and car from this year... then they start talking about how hard up for money they are, or the "rich people" across town.

Plus, add the Unfortunate Implications clarification and create an analysis subpage.

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#6: Jul 23rd 2024 at 12:50:15 PM

...Again, you're missing the point that this is a contrast with how media normally portrays poverty, to the point where their financial hardships are more or less an Informed Attribute. Real life is not really relevant here. We can add info on how IRL these things don't tell you very much, but we shouldn't erase stuff that pertains to common media portrayals of poverty.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 23rd 2024 at 3:51:01 PM

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selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#7: Jul 23rd 2024 at 12:59:06 PM

Yes, I know, but also viewers aren't that dumb and some writers are aware of that.

However, the worn out and broken things bit is somewhat exaggerated/unrealistic even for fictionland. That's describing someone living in a war torn area.

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#8: Jul 23rd 2024 at 1:08:36 PM

IDK, most obviously "poor" characters I can think of have that exaggeration going for them. It's unrealistic, but it's clear.

And I'm not saying that the media thinks "all audiences are dumb", but the idea that people can have nice things and still struggle financially is a relatively modern and nuanced understanding of poverty; one that many creators are simply not aiming to portray unless the point is to showcase a realistic image of what being poor is like. By focusing so heavily on this, you're missing the very point of the trope.

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TheMountainKing Since: Jul, 2016
#9: Jul 23rd 2024 at 3:07:38 PM

[up] But the trope description doesn't say "this is in contrast to how the media portrays poverty", it's written with a pretty clear negative tone that assumes that these depictions are unrealistic. It's just reflecting a stereotyped understanding of poverty, not commenting on it. If anything, the page demands that unsubtle depiction by being a place to mock anything that differs from it.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Jul 23rd 2024 at 6:08:49 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#10: Jul 23rd 2024 at 3:13:35 PM

It can be changed to not focus so much on a lack of realism, but my point is that it relies on common depictions of poverty not being in play so that the characters in question appear to be well off with no real evidence to the contrary aside from their own claims. The sentences brought up were not discussing realism at all, but simply a common way of showing poverty vs what the trope depicts. We shouldn't claim that these things are "unrealistic" but we also shouldn't remove valid info about stereotypical media portrayals of poverty and wealth just for the sake of "fixing the trope". A trope that very much doesn't care about nuance rather than the convenience of having "poor" characters in a nice and spacious set.

I probably misspoke before because I'm not saying the trope relies on contrast, but exploring the contrast with Pottery Barn Poor and more "usual" depictions of poverty helps people understand the scale.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 23rd 2024 at 6:14:40 AM

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themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#11: Jul 23rd 2024 at 3:44:52 PM

I’m looking at the page and the examples seem a bit whiny. Is it just me reading too much into it, or should I do a wick check for complaining?

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#12: Jul 23rd 2024 at 3:45:23 PM

I mean, yeah, complaining seems to be the worst issue here. And that's one we can fix.

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themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#13: Jul 23rd 2024 at 3:46:22 PM

I wonder if a new name might help with complaining. It might just be me but a name like “Pottery Barn Poor” seems like it’s inviting these kind of examples.

Sandbox.Pottery Barn Poor Wick Check if anyone’s interested.

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Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#14: Jul 23rd 2024 at 4:38:59 PM

What about examples in which someone receives government assistance, allowing them to purchase certain items that would otherwise be beyond their means?

Kirby is awesome.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#15: Jul 23rd 2024 at 4:42:15 PM

I don't believe that would be a straight example, since it's justified in-universe and not actually an oddity

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Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#16: Jul 23rd 2024 at 7:23:22 PM

TBH, I find the name really unclear as well, but not sure how that actually affects the wicks if the main issue is complaining rather than misuse.

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#17: Jul 23rd 2024 at 7:26:31 PM

I don't know, to me Pottery Barn Poor as a name sounds kind of pejorative, in a manner that might lead to more negative examples. Like, someone might be more likely to complain if the name is leading them to.

Again though, it could just be me.

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selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#18: Jul 23rd 2024 at 9:00:29 PM

Yeah, if the examples are "these characters aren't as broke as they make it seem, they're lying to us/think we're stupid!1!!", then something needs to be fixed here. But we wouldn't know unless we get a sample of wicks.

If I have time, I might work on it.

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MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#19: Jul 24th 2024 at 12:25:14 AM

I'd say this needs either quality control or making it YMMV, and considering "Friends" Rent Control and Living in a Furniture Store aren't YMMV, the former might be more likely. Informed Poverty could work as a name.

Edit: Wait, Informed Poverty is already a different trope? What distinguishes Pottery Barn Poor from that and Living in a Furniture Store?

Edited by MorganWick on Jul 24th 2024 at 12:26:16 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#20: Jul 24th 2024 at 1:15:21 AM

I suppose it's a supertrope even if it doesn't claim to be? But they're very similar.

On the complaining front, we need to keep in mind that "these characters aren't as poor as they claim because they have a nice place" is the definition of the trope, or at least, they aren't percieved to be poor. Ones that are outright bashy are bad obviously, but I just don't want us to edge into considering actual proper usage to be bad solely for having a complaining slant.

Willing to check some wicks tomorrow.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 24th 2024 at 5:04:05 AM

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Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
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#21: Jul 24th 2024 at 7:30:14 AM

I've always thought this, "Friends" Rent Control, and Living in a Furniture Store should be YMMV

Edited by Libraryseraph on Jul 24th 2024 at 10:30:23 AM

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king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#22: Jul 24th 2024 at 7:37:15 AM

I disagree with "Friends" Rent Control being YMMV, because that can be measured somewhat (estimates can be made about how much an apartment costs, and then from there whether these supposedly financially struggling characters would be able to realistically afford it and afford to keep it). Same with Living in a Furniture Store, ultimately, that's just an apartment being really clean and organised. Whether that suits the characters or not is up to the viewer.

Edited by king15 on Jul 24th 2024 at 2:37:35 PM

EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#23: Jul 24th 2024 at 10:07:02 AM

Informed Poverty is mostly the super trope of a characters' lifestyle and spending habits not matching claims of being cash strapped. Like most "Informed X" tropes there is some misuse due to editors being selective in the context clues.

Pottery Barn Poor is focused on "Poor equals rustic designer brands" and centered more on production design, and would range from elegant wood grain tables to wearing North Face windbreakers. Living in a Furniture Store is separate from poverty altogether and just pointing out the complexities of making a space feel lived in.

All of these tropes often have internal commentary on the matter, which tends to override the more subjective elements.

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#24: Jul 24th 2024 at 10:10:52 AM

Just so that it’s known, if the complaining isn’t aggressive, I’ll withdraw my rename suggestion. That idea was dependent on the level of complaining examples.

Maybe if there are some, but not enough for TRS, we could do a Short-Term cleanup thread.

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RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#25: Jul 24th 2024 at 10:43:43 AM

I feel like, with the existence of Informed Poverty and Living in a Furniture Store, Pottery Barn Poor feels unnecessary as a trope - it's just doing both of those other tropes at once, without much to really make it unique as its own trope.


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