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Ernestin (Newbie) Relationship Status: A heart full of love
#701: Dec 29th 2024 at 11:22:55 AM

When the guys in charge of Clean Up solve their problems (I don't know what they are), do you think Scar from Mufasa's continuity will still remain a Complete Monster?

Snicka Since: Jun, 2011
#702: Dec 29th 2024 at 11:36:18 AM

With his sympathetic backstory and multiple efforts to rescue Mufasa from certain death? Unlikely.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#703: Dec 29th 2024 at 11:41:09 AM

I think it's best to put any potential discussions regarding that trope on the backburner for now. The mods have indicated that the old proposal system is going to be completely scrapped whenever they're ready to accept new entries, and last I heard that will be bare minimum around 2026.

Basically, Complete Monster (and by extension Magnificent Bastard) are gonna be in limbo for the next year or so until the mods agree upon a new proposal system, and no changes are to be allowed to the entries until that point.

Ernestin (Newbie) Relationship Status: A heart full of love
#704: Dec 29th 2024 at 11:53:14 AM

If they decide to adapt the second movie, I think they should take advantage of it and make Kuvo the biological son.

That is to say, there would no longer be incest problems.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#705: Dec 29th 2024 at 2:01:12 PM

What, you mean that Mufasa and Scar are no longer brothers? I guess so. Though I feel this is weakening one plot to strengthen another.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#706: Dec 29th 2024 at 2:07:28 PM

Mufasa is the adopted brother of Taka, who actually has royal bloodline. Nevertheless, Taka actually wanted a brother to stand by him, and it's only the poor teachings of his father, Obasi, that led Taka to eventually abandon that brotherly bond because they are not actually related.

The irony is that Mufasa doesn't wish to be king and actually tries to help Taka be the king. It's just that Taka was too spoiled to actually rise up to the occasion and let his chances slip through his paws.

Snicka Since: Jun, 2011
#707: Dec 29th 2024 at 2:32:48 PM

I listened to "I Always Wanted A Brother", and honestly, it does feel more like a Lin-Manuel Miranda song than a The Lion King song. There were lots of rapid rhymes in it (in Miranda's trademark Patter Song style), and no African Chant at all.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#708: Dec 29th 2024 at 3:50:55 PM

[up][up] Hmm, that doesn't seem to vibe very well with the original Lion King story. That doesn't really seem to match the relationship Mufasa and Scar were having there at all.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Afrovenator Since: May, 2021 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
#709: Dec 29th 2024 at 4:14:28 PM

In regards to Mufasa's, we do see him in the beginning of Simba's Pride. And there was also a deleted scene where Mufasa would appear to Kiara and tell her that the circle is broken after Kovu's banishment.

Scar presumably lied about the real demise of his guard. The show just handwaves it.

"You see, I had to trap Sonic in the hell dimension cause he disrespected gamers."
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#710: Dec 29th 2024 at 5:12:25 PM

[up][up] The original backstory was more generic and makes you wonder why Mufasa would ever trust Scar with anything. I mean, Scar looks evil and whines about he's not king and such. The thing that Mufasa the Lion King manage to do right, even if it means retconning the backstory, was establish why Mufasa would trust Scar to save him during the stampede.

Long story short, Taka did save Mufasa on multiple occasions and primarily due to his lingering love for his brother. Thus, Scar's betrayal hits a lot harder because this time, that love is no longer there anymore.

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#711: Dec 29th 2024 at 5:51:42 PM

"Prey animals tho"

Lions are nowhere near as badass and mighty IRL as they are in the Lion King tho.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#712: Dec 29th 2024 at 6:19:24 PM

So, out of curiosity, ended up seeing Mufasa. My thoughts:

The whole framing device with Rafiki telling Kiara a story to help her during a storm was superfluous, and as someone who didn't see the remake I really don't like Seth Rogen Pumbaa and whoever plays Timon's Timon. Nathan Lane and Ernie Sabella all the way. Not to mention they talked WAY too much and their whole thing of critiquing Rafiki's story got very old very fast.

Pacing at the beginning is way too fast. I know the whole thing was to get to Mufasa and Taka's young adulthood so that they could get on the trip but we barely got to see any cub stuff of theirs. Even the cub part of the original Lion King took up like, what, nearly half of the movie? Here it seemed like we were away in like 20 minutes or so, barely two songs and a bit more.

The songs were kinda hit and miss for me; I Always Wanted A Brother was a favorite, but We Go Together and Tell Me It's You were also fun.

Kiros was an interesting kind of villain where despite him being a merciless conqueror you could also see the sympathetic parts, considering the whole reason he's chasing Mufasa and the rest is because Mufasa killed his son (very brutally too, for a Disney film). Plus him constantly tracking them makes him feel like more of a threat.

Even then, the main story was pretty forgettable. The whole thing is, of course, how Mufasa became King of Pride Rock, how Taka became Scar, and everything else, so there's no real plot twists until Taka actually betrays them.

What I do think the film shines in, though, is the character writing. Like, we see how Taka was once a cheerful kid who really did want to become the best king he could be and was disappointed that his dad was essentially a lazy brute who would never teach him anything, how he fell in love with Sarabi but despite Mufasa's best efforts she ended up falling in love with Mufasa anyway, and how he constantly chafed at his mother preferring Mufasa out of nothing but circumstance. Even then though, with how sweet and eager he was, you could still see the bad parts of him coming through, like him being coy with Mufasa being in danger, how he said he wanted to be when he was King, and such.

Him finally betraying Mufasa even came out of a broken heart and him feeling like everyone looking to Mufasa for leadership, and even then despite all of that we could really see him struggling with his emotions about that; even at the end when he had Mufasa at his mercy and could have just let him drown he still did the right thing because Mufasa was a brother he loved...but Mufasa couldn't forgive him for betraying them the way he did, and that refusal of forgiveness along with Mufasa getting what Taka thought should have been his played a part in him becoming the manipulative murderer we see in the main film.

Mufasa was also a pretty good bit of character growth; he never thought he belonged despite assurances and always put Taka first, refusing to take the credit on most things and even trying to be Taka's wingman with Sarabi before she figured him out. We also see him growing pretty well from a shy cub to a brave lion that could be a king, especially with how he came up with all of the ideas and was helping everyone else to shine in their own way while also struggling because he had no idea who he was or who he was even supposed to be. Even when he saves the day and becomes King he doesn't feel like he deserves it and only ever treated Taka kindly.

Sarabi was also a good character; she came across as capable without coming on too strongly with it, and it wasn't Mufasa's strength or skill that attracted her either; it was how he listened, and how he helped everyone, and how sweet he was, which I thought was good. She wasn't afraid to call out his flaws either, and their relationship felt natural as it grew across the movie, even to the point where she was basically saying "You love me you moron, just admit it" Even with the Silk Hiding Steel sort of portrayal we got a glimpse of in the original film, it was good to see it build more from this.

Biggest thought though: I was repeatedly thinking "Man this would have been great animated traditionally in the old Lion King style."

But definitely a movie that was kind of tailor-made to make money, so overall...pretty average, I'd say.

Edited by theLibrarian on Dec 29th 2024 at 6:28:43 AM

Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#713: Dec 29th 2024 at 9:46:59 PM

So in the realistic animation movie The Lion Guard is not counted right? Since in the animated continuity Scar/Askari had an encounter with an unknown evil lion and snake.

Also I find it funny Kion got married younger than usual. You'd think they'd wait for his mane to grow out first.

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#714: Dec 29th 2024 at 9:55:47 PM

I think by the time Lion Guard ends he was intended to be like, a young teenager. He and Kiara are twins, and by the time they get back to the Pride Lands at the season finale they've gotten back just after Simba's Pride ended, so I'd imagine he's Kiara's age.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#715: Dec 29th 2024 at 10:00:04 PM

[up][up] Lion Guard's explanation for Scar's turn to evil was rather silly, even if Scar's lesser traits were already there.

It was far more impactful for the scar to be a result of Scar's mistake, whether it be from accidentally enraging a buffalo to challenging Mufasa for the throne. Or in the case of the new movie, a blow he took for his brother from Kiros after initially betraying Mufasa to him.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#716: Dec 30th 2024 at 2:25:15 AM

I didn't find Timon and Pumbaa nearly as funny in Lion King 2, though that may be because they actually weren't very funny at all. They also suffered from the same issue as Genie in Prince of Thieves, namely that they were nothing but comic relief now, which degrades their characters somewhat. Characters who can do nothing but crack joke after joke cannot relate to the main characters well.

And that fast pacing at the start of Mufasa was a problem in 2, too. We get to see way less of Kiara as a cub as we do Simba, and I feel we get to know less about her as a character.

Edited by Redmess on Dec 30th 2024 at 11:27:50 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#717: Dec 30th 2024 at 5:56:53 AM

We do at least get more of her in Lion Guard as well, where her character is deepened more beyond her interactions with Kovu. I imagine the issue there is just "Okay the majority of this story happens when they're older, we need to speed things up."

Snicka Since: Jun, 2011
#718: Dec 30th 2024 at 6:11:54 AM

Yeah, in the original movie, about half of the movie is spent on getting to know Simba as a person in his childhood - so that we can relate to him when the tragedy hits. Very importantly, the key event of the story, Mufasa's death, happens when Simba's still a child. And then the second half, when he is an adult, is about him coping with the childhood tragedy and confronting it.

By comparison, in the second movie the childhood sequence is only used for setting up the story, but the events of key importance (Kovu infiltrating Simba's pride and falling in love with Kiara) all happen after the Time Skip.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#719: Dec 30th 2024 at 7:37:29 AM

I would also have liked to see a bit more of Kovu getting trained and beaten down by his mom before he grew up, so we get more of a sense of how he changed from a friendly cub into a hardened killer.

Also, Kovu gets insta-scarred and that's really not how scars work. He also just brushes it off like its nothing at all. I think that could have been a bit more dramatic and traumatizing. It's not like the first movie pulled its punches, after all.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Augustus813 Since: Apr, 2015
#720: Dec 30th 2024 at 8:13:12 AM

Speaking of Mufasa not talking to Kiara, I always found it a little unfair that she never got to contact him while Simba and Kion did.

That scene near the end of the Mufasa film is closest we get to rectifying that.

Edited by Augustus813 on Dec 30th 2024 at 8:13:59 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#721: Dec 30th 2024 at 9:38:19 AM

I know right? She barely talks to Nala too. I don't think Sarabi even shows up. 2 is very much a daddy-daughter movie in that regard.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Afrovenator Since: May, 2021 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
#722: Dec 30th 2024 at 10:31:24 AM

Kiara doesn't really interact with a lot of characters other than Simba, Kovu, Timon and Pumbaa. She has a few with Nala and Zazu, one interaction with Zira and Rafiki, and shares no dialogue with Nuka and Vitani.

"You see, I had to trap Sonic in the hell dimension cause he disrespected gamers."
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#723: Dec 30th 2024 at 11:09:51 AM

I mean, wasn't Sarabi not in 2 because her voice actress died?

Augustus813 Since: Apr, 2015
#724: Dec 30th 2024 at 11:11:33 AM

Yeah.

Would have liked to see Sarabi be a doting grandma

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#725: Dec 30th 2024 at 12:06:00 PM

Oh yeah, that's right. They could have just gotten a new VA, though. It's not like they didn't replace other characters' voices.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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