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Coyote Vs Acme

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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#951: Mar 20th 2024 at 3:44:03 AM

and the animators getting paid

Um, they already got paid for their work even if the movie wasn't actually released.

Disgusted, but not surprised
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#952: Mar 20th 2024 at 6:43:25 AM

This is getting uncomfortably close to "Masterful gambit, sir!" territory.

The thing is, I'm not a shareholder. I don't have to care about the numbers. I'm a Looney Tunes fan and a movie fan, and seeing this Looney Tunes movie is the only thing I care about. Unless some of the cash from Zaslav's yacht fund (sorry—Zaslav and friends' yacht fund) is going to trickle down to you, there's no sensible reason you should care about that either.

We don't have a responsibility to these monkey-suited, leeching-class goobers. You can say their terrible choices "make financial sense," but if they actually knew CvsA was a guaranteed loser, they wouldn't have walked back the write-off in the first place. That shareholders only care about money is a fact, not an excuse.

#ReleaseCoyoteVsAcme, dadgummit.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#953: Mar 20th 2024 at 6:51:17 AM

Not really.

This thread is just... honestly, it feels a bit disconnected from reality. Like, I want this to come out, but an argument has to be made for it to come out. And to do that, we all kind of need to come from a similar understanding of how the world works.

Insisting WB release it at a loss doesn't help convince them to do it, it helps convince them to never try something like this again.

I don't personally care if WB goes bankrupt tomorrow. I'm just aware enough to know that corporations make decisions based on money and not delusional enough to pretend that their bottom lines doesn't affect their output.

Edited by Larkmarn on Mar 20th 2024 at 9:53:11 AM

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chino514 (Apprentice)
#954: Mar 20th 2024 at 6:54:24 AM

Considering we went from pushing to get WB to release Coyote vs. ACME to sending a message that creators should be able to release their works, not have them be written off for taxes.

ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#955: Mar 20th 2024 at 7:05:02 AM

*taps the sign*

You can say their terrible choices "make financial sense," but if they actually knew CvsA was a guaranteed loser, they wouldn't have walked back the write-off in the first place.

The movie is finished, the cast and crew want to release it, and everyone wants to see it. Let's not pretend those aren't important factors.

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#956: Mar 20th 2024 at 7:13:13 AM

everyone wants to see it

Does everyone want to see it? Because the BO record for Looney Tunes movies isn't all that great. And that is an incredibly important factor, because if they think they gain more by having it as a tax write off, then it will be a tax write off. If they are convinced it will do well and they release it and it bombs, then they won't make another Looney Tunes movie for a while. they are a business, this was a business decision. Deciding to release it will also be a business decision, not a decision to make a vocal minority online happy.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#957: Mar 20th 2024 at 7:14:49 AM

And the last time they tried to make a vocal minority happy they wasted $50 million.

Because the BO record for Looney Tunes movies isn't all that great.

Back in Action in particular bombed so badly they were scared off from making a full length Looney Tunes movie for decades.

Edited by M84 on Mar 20th 2024 at 10:16:34 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#958: Mar 20th 2024 at 7:46:55 AM

Yeah, "everyone wants to see it" is kinda what I meant when I said this thread is disconnected from reality.

While the Streisand Effect is in play here, and arguments could and should be made that not releasing it hurts WB's credibility and future in many intangible and tangible ways, pretending like it's a guaranteed success even on its meager budget undermines your arguments.

Just because WB is being dumb of late doesn't mean doing the opposite of their actions is smart.

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Readersprite The Very Model of a Modern Intellectual from Hell, Florida, USA Since: Sep, 2021 Relationship Status: Desperate
The Very Model of a Modern Intellectual
#959: Mar 20th 2024 at 7:58:53 AM

     On Understanding What We Are Doing Here 
This is getting uncomfortably close to "Masterful gambit, sir!" territory.

That's not very fair. When the merger first happened, this forum was a lot of emotionally charged grief and anger about the decisions made by Zaslav (and team, which are collectively referred to as "Zaslav"). Now that it's been processed a bit, we're taking a more analytical approach, trying to understand why these decisions are made.

The thing is, I'm not a shareholder. I don't have to care about the numbers. I'm a Looney Tunes fan and a movie fan, and seeing this Looney Tunes movie is the only thing I care about.

That's a valid approach, but it's not a productive one. I think I can safely say we all would rather the film be released than not, and most would probably rather see than not, but simply stating that and then complaining that we can't doesn't get us anywhere, intellectually or emotionally.

Unless some of the cash from Zaslav's yacht fund (sorry—Zaslav and friends' yacht fund) is going to trickle down to you, there's no sensible reason you should care about that either.

We don't have a responsibility to these monkey-suited, leeching-class goobers. You can say their terrible choices "make financial sense," but if they actually knew Cvs A was a guaranteed loser, they wouldn't have walked back the write-off in the first place. That shareholders only care about money is a fact, not an excuse.

This isn't fair either, and I find it insulting. I'm not defending Zaslav, but I do think it's dangerous to let senseless contempt go unchecked, especially after seeing how quickly the first month of the merger led to some uncomfortable antisemitism here. I think it's interesting to consider the decisions WBD has made and is making, especially in the context of their making, and if explaining it sounds like apology and excuse-mongering, then there's really nothing I can do about that. Now, I can respond to the only comment you made about the discussion, rather than the participants in it.

You can say their terrible choices "make financial sense," but if they actually knew Cvs A was a guaranteed loser, they wouldn't have walked back the write-off in the first place.

That's the thing. They don't know. Nobody knows. Nobody can know unless the film is released. But that's a risky proposition, because if it is a loser, then they lose out on whatever savings they'd get from the writeoff. Also, as was previously covered in this thread, there's the public embarassment of misjudging the film. I doubt that weighs heavily on Zaslav, but it's another friction. That they walked it back is a sign of humility, but remember that the reason they currently can't find a distribution partner is because nobody else judges the film to be worth the same budget. You (sorry, you-and-friends) are claiming that you are willing to spend $70-$80 million or so on this movie. Evidently, market research disagrees.

I like talking to friends about stories over food.
ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#960: Mar 20th 2024 at 10:52:44 AM

Morally, the Zazlav has the duty to shareholders and his fellow employees to keep his business running. A lot of WB shares could be held by non rich people as part of their retirement plans, and WB going bankrupt would hurt non executive employees more than the executive employees.

I am not sure that this is an actual tax loophole, or how it can be closed. I also doubt that Zazlav gets a bonus for this. If WB is doing better a year from now, he will make more money. However, canceling the movie is cutting the loses. WB is losing money on this.

Bringing a movie to theaters costs money, a lot of money. It is neither crazy nor stupid to think the film will flop. WB also doesn't have Disney level money that they can waste.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#961: Mar 20th 2024 at 10:59:48 AM

I find it interesting that some people have rock hard faith that WB's strategy is obviously based on factual data and old hard fact, rather than execs being idiot who don't know what they've got.

Maybe that's true but it's by no means guaranteed.

ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#962: Mar 20th 2024 at 11:15:26 AM

[up][up] I appreciate you taking the time to explain your perspective, but I think we're already making a financial case for this movie just by being vocal about wanting to see it. We don't have to agree with the executives/shareholders that money is the only thing. That's not a concession we have to make, and it will not help.

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#963: Mar 20th 2024 at 11:38:14 AM

We don't have to agree with the executives/shareholders that money is the only thing.

Nobody here is saying money is the only thing. But their decisions are primarily based on what is best for the company, which is a financial issue. Pretending that a small, vocal group wanting to see the movie really badly is going to make any huge difference in their decision making isn't going to help either.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#964: Mar 20th 2024 at 11:55:20 AM

[up][up][up] No, most of us think that they're fucking up. We just know that there's a reason for them fucking up. And that a lot of the statements insisting why they should release the movie are based in pure fiction which undermines the credibility of anyone trying to convince anyone that releasing the movie could make sense.

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dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#965: Mar 20th 2024 at 12:01:47 PM

[up] That's a contradictory statement if they're doing it because it makes financial sense then you're arguing that they're not fucking up.

ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#966: Mar 20th 2024 at 12:07:44 PM

Does anyone know how many people are willing to see it in theaters? That is the big question. The best way to save the film is to show that enough people are interested.

It is easy to be in a bubble of like minded people, and then to overestimate how many people share your opinion.

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#967: Mar 20th 2024 at 12:40:43 PM

[up][up]They're fucking up for moral, artistic and reputational reasons. Financially they probably could get more by writing it off than releasing it as a BO bomb.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#968: Mar 20th 2024 at 12:48:59 PM

Right. They're saying "We spent $70 on this. We can either gamble by spending more money on advertising and spending money to put it in theaters, or take $30 and walk away with a net loss of $40 million. There is no other factor here."

They went with what they say as "no risk, no reward" option. Where I disagree is that there was a risk in doing that, a reputational risk. There's also the chance the "high risk, some reward option" that would've cost them a lot more could've panned out quite well. They weren't comfortable taking the financial risk.

And then there's the shitshow with them "shopping" it around.

Edited by Larkmarn on Mar 20th 2024 at 5:05:10 AM

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ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#969: Mar 20th 2024 at 1:01:21 PM

I think they can recover from the reputational damage. People might be hesitant to work with them, but then they can write a guarantee that they release the film in the contract. They are in Hollywood, not exactly known for behaving well.

Continuing to cancel films is not sustainable long term. For several reasons. I don't suspect that they want to cancel more, because part of cancelling them is to go a new direction with a "clean" slate.

Edited by ry4n on Mar 20th 2024 at 1:02:40 AM

Brandon Deadly Vu! from Between Thanksgiving and Christmas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
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#970: Mar 20th 2024 at 1:49:56 PM

I'm still in the boat that if they truly want to just write it off as a loss on their taxes, then it should just become public domain.

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theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#971: Mar 20th 2024 at 7:15:11 PM

It's not just that "everyone wants to see it". The movie apparently tested extremely well.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
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#972: Mar 20th 2024 at 7:18:58 PM

[up][up][up] Oh, I don't think they'll stop to just Coyote vs Acme. People said the same thing about Batgirl. That it will just stop there and we must presume they won't do it again.

The reason why Coyote vs Acme has a louder outcry is because it was AFTER Batgirl and several animated films got canceled... and yet The Flash got released. A betrayal of trust plus appearing like they have no clue of what actually should be cancelled.

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#973: Mar 20th 2024 at 7:19:17 PM

So did Flash, but I still agree with you. Just had to mention that.

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ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#974: Mar 21st 2024 at 3:48:09 AM

They have to stop eventually, and it makes sense that this is part of a transition.

The company is losing money, they aren't cancelling movies for fun, or to hurt you. From WB's perspective, it is a necessary evil.

Zazlav is also unlikely to cancel projects that he greenlit. How many projects are left from before he took over?

I bet he wished he cancelled Flash.

Ego-Man25 Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#975: Mar 21st 2024 at 4:19:56 AM

I am still of the opinion that it makes more tactical, logical sense to release Coyote VS ACME at all in the first place. I am keenly well aware that Warner Bros. is losing money to an insane degree, that difficult cancellations are going to need to be made, and no matter how you slice it, some creators are going to be seriously burned that things didn't go their way... but, say this film, 100% was going to be a flop or failure. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, if you ask me. They were going to lose money either which way, cancellation or no cancellation. I feel it'd make more sense to make the move that doesn't get the Internet to explode on your ass first thing.

Self-professed Wild Card who thinks cynicism isn't so bad.

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