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C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#226: Nov 14th 2023 at 12:23:19 PM

Curious but what happens in Secret Invasion, and what did The Marvels do that made it not good retroactively?

In addition to the answers above, Secret Invasion and The Marvels don't mesh well, as any respective order between the two raises some Fridge Logic or questions about why some characters don't talk about a given subject. There are ways to make these fit together, but it is also very easy to consider them in separate continuities.

Edited by C105 on Nov 14th 2023 at 9:24:17 PM

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Brandon Deadly Vu! from Between Thanksgiving and Christmas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
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#227: Nov 14th 2023 at 12:32:05 PM

Having just read up more on Secret Invasion I found out that the series killed off Agent Hill.

Um. Wow. That was uncalled for.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#228: Nov 14th 2023 at 12:35:10 PM

Secret Invasion was a long, long list of questionable if not awful writing decisions.

I don't really mind if The Marvels retroactively makes it worse. It deserves it, tbh: and at least it means that the Marvels is eschewing some of the stuff that made Invasion such a mess.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 14th 2023 at 12:35:29 PM

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
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#229: Nov 14th 2023 at 1:04:46 PM

Again I suspect the events of Secret Invasion will be ignored going forward and Skrulls will now be oppressed aliens looking for a home.

Just Makima.
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#230: Nov 14th 2023 at 1:07:01 PM

[up][up] It's not so much making it worse as it is that neither work reference the other in any way, and it is somewhat difficult to reconcile them both.

Edited by C105 on Nov 14th 2023 at 10:08:28 AM

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
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#231: Nov 14th 2023 at 1:18:10 PM

The main reason for the disconnect between Secret Invasion and The Marvels is that Secret Invasion was supposed to come out after The Marvels. The Marvels doesn't reference SI because, when it was written, SI hadn't happened yet. SI is the sequel. And it doesn't seem like they changed the scripts of either much, beyond simply rewriting the specific points at the end of The Marvels and beginning of Secret Invasion, where they were meant to intersect.

The Marvels ends with Fury returning to Earth after the big Flerken evacuation, putting him where he needs to be for Secret Invasion. But since SI already came out, they hastily wrote in, "But then S.A.B.E.R. Station was FINE and Fury went back immediately."

After Captain Marvel had the Skrulls leave with Carol to find a new home, The Marvels sees that home destroyed - and the Skrulls blame Carol for it, as they're all forced to take residency on Earth instead. This sets up the conflict of Secret Invasion. But since SI already came out, they hastily wrote in, "But then all the planets miraculously recovered and the Skrulls can go home whenever."

Also, since SI didn't have that setup, they hastily wrote in, "All the Skrulls are mad because Fury promised them a planet and never delivered. Except for that one in The Marvels but we're not gonna talk about that beyond a brief moment of lip service for continuity's sake."

They did some half-assed editing where the two stories were meant to connect, then left everything else basically the same.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 14th 2023 at 1:19:05 AM

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Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
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#232: Nov 14th 2023 at 1:24:46 PM

Geez they couldn't spend time fixing that problem? They're essentially rewriting BNW, but The Marvels is stuck as is...

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#233: Nov 14th 2023 at 2:28:40 PM

I feel like people trying to figure out which was supposed to be first miss that the original plan was so overthrown that it doesn't really matter. It's clearly meant to be before The Marvels now.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 14th 2023 at 2:29:00 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#234: Nov 14th 2023 at 2:43:14 PM

I've spent a lot of time having this argument: that the original intent is irrelevant compared to the final outcome. Loki actively references this idea in the Season 2 finale, after the writers reportedly had to can their original idea for the fifth episode. There's a maxim in writing about being willing to kill your babies, and it's something that audiences never seem to learn.

Whatever the original plan for Secret Invasion and The Marvels may have been in terms of the overall MCU timeline and their respective continuities, there are unavoidable conflicts between the shows that we got, despite their efforts to skirt around those issues.

Assuming that the canon order is indeed SI first...

  • Why the Skrulls on Earth don't consider Dro'ge's colony to be an alternative refuge is never addressed.
  • Fury must know what Carol is doing in the cosmos yet apparently never shares this information with the Skrulls on Earth.
  • Ritsen's declaration of war on aliens seems to ignore the existence of New Asgard... and of SABER, although maybe he considers that an exception because it's not technically "on Earth".
    • The SABER escape pods that land on Earth carrying a bunch of Flerkens and humanoid aliens seem like they'd be in violation of Ritsen's declaration no matter how you interpret it.
  • Fury either decides not to tell Carol about Talos' death and the other things that happened in Secret Invasion, or she gets over her grief abnormally quickly and entirely offscreen.
  • It's hard to believe that Gi'ah wouldn't come up at all, especially if Kamala is trying to recruit a Young Avengers team and has access to Fury's files. Maybe that all happens offscreen.

Edited to add: I'll say this: Carol's reason for not wanting to come back to Earth — shame about her mishandling of the Kree situation — is pretty darn sympathetic. I just wish we'd had a little more time to explore it, especially if she could have reignited their sun at any time.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 14th 2023 at 5:54:58 AM

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#235: Nov 14th 2023 at 3:03:10 PM

[up]Eh, I'm not sure that this is necessarily that big of a conflict.

After all, Talos makes a speech that the Skrulls don't want to leave Earth and he's hoping they'll assimilate. They came here to Earth during the past five years and prefer it here, they just don't want to deal with human racism.

The American President is not the ruler of Earth and his ban on aliens is going to only apply to America.

It also is, according to Fury, so unpopular he gets a one term. Probably because his statement DOES apply to Thor.

(We could have Broxton, OK miniseries if they feel inclined to give Sif a show)

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Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
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#236: Nov 14th 2023 at 3:09:17 PM

[up] What about the Russian government? They'd be pissed about aliens using their home to kill humans.

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C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#237: Nov 14th 2023 at 3:51:51 PM

[up][up][up] About Carol and the Kree sun, I think the point was that she thought she could simply not do it, just like Monica thought she could not fly. I know it's a bit weak, but it makes some sense : you won't even consider doing something if you don't think you can do it (and in any case it would not be the first time Marvel pulled that card - Multiverse of Madness was basically resolved by a character suddenly discovering that they could do something they spent the whole movie believing they could not).

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#238: Nov 14th 2023 at 3:55:38 PM

Russia may not even know what's going on.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Brandon Deadly Vu! from Between Thanksgiving and Christmas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Deadly Vu!
#239: Nov 14th 2023 at 3:55:46 PM

Didn't she fix their sun by flying through it? If that was a solution I would have been apprehensive too, and tried to find other alternatives.

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#240: Nov 14th 2023 at 4:15:44 PM

Just watched the movie

Pretty good. Not great, except the leads’ interactions but I liked it

I liked a lot of the elements and they came together mostly coherently.

It doesn’t matter at this point that Marvels was supposed to come out before Secret Invasion but I’m glad if the order swap made the Marvels change elements. Let the Skrulls have a break and have their planet fixed off camera. They deserve something nice like a home.

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#241: Nov 14th 2023 at 4:19:28 PM

Alright Marvel's done. Yeah it's an alright film, nothing really special.

You know when you watch a movie and it's perfectly perfunctory? Like it's not terrible but it's not really great either, thats how I felt.

A bit soured on the fact that apparently Nia Da Costa the director stated the film wound up being wrested control from her and ended up being "Feige's movie" more than hers.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#242: Nov 14th 2023 at 4:45:06 PM

I'm sure someone else has already made this joke, but I guess Carol is officially a Disney Princess now.

It was nice to see Brie sing again. All we need now is Carol to find a variant of herself who fronts an art rock band.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
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#243: Nov 14th 2023 at 4:53:08 PM

"saw someone bring this up. And why the audience for this film was over 25 and why it failed to get Gen z'ers. Which is due to different taste. The Bathos of the mcu being off PUTTING to them. As they prefer more serious fare like that or at least have the comedy separate from the drama."

As someone in Gen Z....I don't really see that much? Most people I've seen seem to love things with a comedic or weird edge. And a lot of them are people who have grown up on the MCU.

Stuff with a bleaker or dark tone have their place but not every work has to be like that either. This is a goofy space adventure and it has the right tone for that. The resident Vile Villain, Saccharine Show is pretty consistently serious and treated as such. And she's also generally agreed to be the weakest part of the movie.

Not that MCU fatigue didn't contribute at all but I certainly doubt it's any kind of 'generational' thing.

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ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#244: Nov 14th 2023 at 4:55:43 PM

I've never heard anyone say that Zoomers prefer things more serious or seen anything to suggest that.

Also, there really wasn't any Bathos in this movie. The serious and dramatic things were kept away from the comedic things.

The movie has a lot of little things I like. Like Fury saying "not my good eye" when a Flerken...flerks out, we'll say. And at the end when Carol and Monica say "higher further faster", there's a shot of Kamala, and she doesn't say it despite being such a fanboy because she understands that would be intruding on their moment.

There was actually a lot of emotional intelligence on display from all three leads, which is rare in movies in general, to say nothing of the largely male MCU.

Edited by ArthurEld on Nov 14th 2023 at 4:56:07 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#245: Nov 14th 2023 at 4:56:38 PM

Noting the Kree crowd shots and Kree characters in the movie, there is way too many normal skin people and not enough blue skins.

To note in the comic mythology the blue skins are the majority of the Kree with the pink skins a marginalized minority.

Not saying they have to adapt the pink skin discrimination part but the lack of blue skins is a bad choice since that's visually the most distinctive part of the Kree species Without it they are a generic human aliens group.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#246: Nov 14th 2023 at 4:57:59 PM

If anything more Gen Z people complain that everything from the 90's was edgy and grimdark and should be buried, and we're seeing more comedic stuff like GOTG Christmas and She Hulk then we are gritty stuff like Daredevil or Jessica Jones.

Edited by FOFD on Nov 14th 2023 at 7:58:55 AM

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#247: Nov 14th 2023 at 4:59:51 PM

Speaking of, it's nice to see that like most old people, Carol is pushing sixty and still listening to music from the 90s.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#248: Nov 14th 2023 at 5:05:39 PM

We don’t know what the skin tone ratio is on MCU Hala

Not to mention that as an ancient empire that used to control some large amount of space - I missed the size of the Kree at their height - they probably have a very international population so to speak

Edited by Bocaj on Nov 14th 2023 at 8:05:52 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#249: Nov 14th 2023 at 5:07:51 PM

I feel like that would mean a greater variety of alien species but every shot we have of Hala and the Kree forces is entirely human with little modification beyond the blue skins.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Brandon Deadly Vu! from Between Thanksgiving and Christmas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
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#250: Nov 14th 2023 at 6:19:19 PM

A bit soured on the fact that apparently Nia Da Costa the director stated the film wound up being wrested control from her and ended up being "Feige's movie" more than hers.
If it helps her feel any better, she's far from the first MCU director to have that happen.

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