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Hellaverse Cleanup (Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss)

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Vivienne Medrano's works, namely Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss (collectively known as the Hellaverse), are fairly popular but also quite divisive online, even or especially amongst certain fans. This has caused several edit wars that have been brought up several times to ATT, "Is This An Example?", and several other cleanup threads. This is due to a combination of vocal critics and detractors of the Hellaverse adding extremely critical and almost complainy, disruptive edits, being countered with an equal amount of very defensive fans who attempt to justify and even censor many of the legitimate criticisms given to the show. Some entries also need fact-checking. I've decided to make this thread to clean up or discuss any misuse or tropes or just misinformation about Viv's shows in general.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Dec 25th 2024 at 9:40:14 PM

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#526: Dec 24th 2024 at 10:51:35 PM

@king15: I'd say cut The Chris Carter Effect as issue/backlash isn't about dragging on such fans lose faith it will ever get a satisfactory resolution, but other problems that might fit other items.

@Clem-Clem: Is the UU for Stolas and Octavia coming from the opposite sides on the Broken Base? That would explain their coexistence? Or is there reason even those critical of Stolas felt Octavia was intentionally out of line?

Speaking of:

  • Misaimed Fandom: Octavia has come under fire for a variety of reasons this episode, each one however being different than what the show was depicting.
    • Many detractors towards Octavia this episode treat her as if she is either blind to or willfully ignorant of how awful Stella is in favor of just blaming Stolas for leaving her despite Stella abusing him and taking the decision out of his hands. Octavia however is shown to be completely aware of how awful Stella and Andrealphus are with their keeping Stolas from contacting her, how they spent a month mocking Stolas and not giving a rat's ass about her, and she never says anything to suggest she has positive feelings towards Stella at this point, it just doesn't erase the fact she feels Stolas abandoned her, and makes it even worse since it meant he left her with Stella. Stolas meanwhile made a conscious effort to hide how bad his relationship with Stella was from Octavia, and the true severity of it only became apparent when they got divorced.
    • Many think the reason Octavia is so angry with Stolas is still tied to the fact he had an affair at all, that he couldn't have been "happy" with just Stella and her in favor of Blitzo, and is acting like It's All About Me by thinking its her fault Stolas needed his happy pills or thinking she is saying he should have let Blitzo die. The reason for Octavia's anger though stems from how, despite Stolas claiming he'd never leave her, he had fully walked into Blitzo's trial intending to die if it meant saving Blitzo and said he had "no regrets" on live television, and only bothered to ask about her after he was only stripped of his powers. Doing that not only gave the impression to Octavia that Stolas ultimately lied to her about never leaving her, but that his love for Blitzo supersedes his love for her, that he needed the happy pills just to be able to be with her making her feel like a burden to him since he's otherwise miserable, and unintentionally validating her fears that Stolas would "run off" with Blitzo and leave her behind if it came to that. Her anger isn't because he loves Blitzo or doesn't love only her, but because his actions made it look like Blitzo takes priority, and that even if he does love her he'd just hurt her in favor of Blitzo.

Regarless of if overly defensive, I agree with this that critics miss that her reasons for disowning Stolas are irrelevant to if she does//should know about Stella's evildoing, unfair criticism this illegal is the opposite of Misaimed Fandom. What to do? Split between Fourth Wall Myopia (overlooking she's a Sheltered Aristocrat who's Locked Out of the Loop about what's judged against her) and Alternate Character Interpretation (reasons for treating Stolas such/overlooking Stella's wrongs being speculation)?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Dec 24th 2024 at 11:03:18 AM

Clem-Clem Since: Sep, 2019
#527: Dec 25th 2024 at 4:00:41 AM

[up] I was talking about a proposed Broken Base that could be added to the YMMV page for The Full Moon due to the amount discourse over the UU entries for Stolas and Blitzo a while back, but you need to wait 6 months before adding one. It's not relevant to the latest Sinsmas episode, because there is no UU entry for Stolas on that page(least not yet anyway).

Yeah, the Misaimed Fandom feels like another big wall of text. And most of it seems to be there just to silence any objections some fans may have had against some of Octavia's behaviour in the episode.

The aim of the UU for Octavia I initially proposed was to be as concise as it could and focus specific points of contention for Octavia, without dismissing the valid parts of her anger toward Stolas. Though this is a moot point until the 2 weeks for adding it have passed.

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: While Octavia is understandably mad at Stolas for his mistakes, she also shows no sympathy nor understanding when she discovers he has been taking anti-depressants, accusing him of always being unhappy with them. This comes across, at best, as her trivialising Stolas mental health issues, or, at worst, outright blaming him for suffering from depression in the first place. And she while rightly chews Stolas out over what's happened, Octavia apparently has no ill words to spare toward Stella, almost acting as though her mother is somehow blameless in all this and that the dysfunction of their family is entirely Stolas' fault.

So basically the above could be summed up as 2, or possible 3 points

  • Octavia blames Stolas, and possibly Blitzo for everything, yet seems to hold no grudge against Stella and never speaks out against her like she did with Stolas. And no, Stella is not manipulating her nor she is trying to hide her own horrible behaviour. One could easily argue that Stella is the one who drove Stolas away(which is not far from the truth), but Octavia doesn't seem to want to blame Stella for anything. And saying Octavia doesn't know how horrible Stella is, would be willfully ignorant on her part at this stage.

  • Octavia treats the discovery of Stolas anti-depressants like another huge betrayal, claiming that he was always unhappy with her and Stella. While depression is not an excuse mind you, it's certainly not something that can be dismissed out of hand either. Stolas needed medication to cope with a mental health issue. Unless Octavia genuinely does not understand how anti-depressants actually work, she is more or less victim blaming Stolas for feeling depressed with his married life. And again, for whatever reason, she does not seem to want to blame that on Stella who is 100% to blame. It is also worth pointing out that Stolas still needs his anti-depressants even now that is living with Blitzo, again, showing depression is far complicated than what Octavia is making out to be.

  • And possibly another point, though maybe not UU, Octavia seems to have a flawed understanding of love. She insists that Stolas doesn't love her or Stella(no loss there), and that he only loves Blitzo. She doesn't seem to think that Stolas can't love them both, implying she sees love as something that is binary. It's either her or Blitzo, with no middle ground.

Edited by Clem-Clem on Dec 25th 2024 at 4:04:20 AM

Zardonix Since: Mar, 2024
#528: Dec 25th 2024 at 6:17:27 AM

With the recent Christmas teaser for season 2 revealing Abel. Any arguments that Adam wasn't whitewashed are now invalid. Abel is very clearly a white guy just like Adam, despite them coming from the middle east like where everyone else from biblical text came from.

Edited by Zardonix on Dec 25th 2024 at 12:22:08 PM

AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#529: Dec 25th 2024 at 6:36:50 AM

[up] It appears you're right. Well, if a Race Lift is what they did then they did it. No turning back from this. We can safely remove any doubt or ambiguity that it was one.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Dec 25th 2024 at 10:46:29 PM

ReginaldOgron5 Est Ut Squimplex Ut from Two blocks down from the Undead Burg Since: Mar, 2022 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
Est Ut Squimplex Ut
#530: Dec 25th 2024 at 6:47:58 AM

[up][up] I'm still not seeing the issue? Adam and his family are mythological characters first and foremost. He has bright gold irises, which don't occur naturally in real life. This feels like the inverse of people complaining about characters of visible African descent in Medieval European Fantasy shows.

Regardless, it still doesn't give people a license to complain about it on pages outside of an Unfortunate Implications entry with a legitimate citation.

Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!
AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#531: Dec 25th 2024 at 7:01:37 AM

[up] You are correct in that assessment, Adam and family are mostly fictional and mythological even to many Christians. That said, St. Peter's Race Lift entry should probably stay cause he's closer to a historical figure than Adam's mythological one

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Dec 25th 2024 at 11:02:29 PM

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#532: Dec 25th 2024 at 12:32:38 PM

In my defense, the original version of Misaimed Fandom I put up was smaller and was more me documenting some of the, imo offbase, takes I'd been seeing on reddit and twitter, and trying to be neither too short to avoid ZCE but also not too long to avoid needing a Word Cruft, its just someone else added more and more on. For reference, this was the original version I put up.

Misaimed Fandom: Octavia has come under fire this episode for a variety of reasons this episode, each one however being different than what the show was depicting.
  • Many detractors towards Octavia this episode treat her as if she is either blind to or willfully ignorant of how awful Stella is in favor of just blaming Stolas for leaving her despite Stella abusing him and taking the decision out of his hands. Octavia however is shown to be completely aware of how awful Stella and Andrealphus are with their keeping Stolas from contacting her, how they spent a month mocking Stolas and not giving a rat's ass about her, and she never says anything to suggest she has positive feelings towards Stella at this point, it just doesn't erase the fact she feels Stolas abandoned her, and makes it even worse since it meant she left him with Stella. Stolas meanwhile made a conscious effort to hide how bad his relationship with Stella was from Octavia, and the true severity of it only became apparent when they got divorced
  • Many think the reason Octavia is so angry with Stolas is still tied to the fact he had an affair at all, that he couldn't have been "happy" with just Stella and her in favor of Blitzo, and is acting like It's All About Me by thinking its her fault Stolas needed his happy pills or thinking she is saying he should have let Blitzo die. The reason for Octavia's anger though stems from how, despite Stolas claiming he'd never leave her, he had fully walked into Blitzo's trial intending to die if it meant saving Blitzo and said he had "no regrets" on live television, and only bothered to ask about her after he was only stripped of his powers. Doing that not only gave the impression to Octavia that Stolas ultimately lied to her about never leaving her, but that his love for Blitzo supersedes his love for her, that he needed the happy pills just to be able to be with her making her feel like a burden to him since he's otherwise miserable, and unintentionally validating her fears that Stolas would "run off" with Blitzo and leave her behind if it came to that. Her anger isn't because he loves Blitzo or doesn't love only her, but because his actions made it look like Blitzo takes priority, and that even if he does love her he'd just hurt her in favor of Blitzo.
Merry Sinsmas everyone

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Zardonix Since: Mar, 2024
#533: Dec 25th 2024 at 12:33:37 PM

[up][up][up] I mean just because they're mythological doesn't mean they were white. The story was written in BC in the middle east, Adam and Eve would've been intended to not be white people, mainly because nobody back then knew white people existed but still, considering more people are agreeing that biblical figures like Noah or Jesus weren't white, youd think Viv would make them look browner, or at least ethnically ambiguous. What if I took a mythological Indian figure and made them white, does the same logic apply there?

Edited by Zardonix on Dec 25th 2024 at 12:34:10 PM

Zardonix Since: Mar, 2024
#534: Dec 25th 2024 at 12:39:27 PM

Also if your argument that he wasnt whitewashed is that he has gold eyes, then I don't think I should be listening to you

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#535: Dec 25th 2024 at 12:41:49 PM

Personally I wasn't as concerned beforehand on the basis that everyone's appearances change when they die, but yeah, it is a pretty messed up look to make all of these characters white. (Not that it's especially rare, in most depictions I've seen, everyone from Adam and Eve to Jesus is indeed portrayed as white; it's just sort of always been an issue)

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
ReginaldOgron5 Est Ut Squimplex Ut from Two blocks down from the Undead Burg Since: Mar, 2022 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
Est Ut Squimplex Ut
#536: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:00:00 PM

[up][up] Goodness no, sorry. That wasn't particularly clear of an argument on my part, and I apologize for that. The point I was trying to make is that Adam is the mythological father of all of humanity as well as how he possesses traits that no other humans do to begin with. I understand the point you're making, but at the same time I am apprehensive about making this seem more out of proportion than it is.

My central point is that portraying a mythological character in a certain way isn't inherently the same thing as portraying a historical person or fictional character as something factually different than what they originally were. Adam would have been portrayed as Levantine among the people his story originated from, for sure, but Eden is not a real geographical location on a map that we can correspond to a real-world place and Adam has since been depicted in all sorts of different ways all over the world (for example, wasn't he African in Good Omens (2019)?). To me this is a very literalist interpretation of mythological events, and partially the reason mythologies still captivate people today is because of how differently they're depicted across media (e.g. the Greek pantheon).

Edited by ReginaldOgron5 on Dec 25th 2024 at 1:00:46 AM

Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!
MrMediaGuy2 Since: Jun, 2015
#537: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:03:13 PM

Also, I feel like if he was darker-skinned, that would've come with its own fair share of Unfortunate Implications given that he's voiced by a white guy. (Plus, I wonder if some people would've found it racist to portray a dark-skinned person as a huge asshole.)

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#538: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:09:42 PM

Hasn't Christian art always been whitewashing biblical scenes? Searching "Cain and Abel" in Google Images, I'm not an expert but I doubt these are historically accurate.

Hellaverse has never been biblically accurate either in the first place and wasn't trying to be.

Edited by Amonimus on Dec 25th 2024 at 12:15:49 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Zardonix Since: Mar, 2024
#539: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:10:05 PM

[up][up][up][up]I think it's worse because more people want figures from the bible to be portrayed with their actual races in recent years. And Viv tried to fix Alastor practicing Voodoo because it was a closed religion for black people by retconning him to be black (although she missed that the complaint was that Voodoo was once again being portrayed as this evil thing when it's not that at all. Yet still whitewashes 4 people who would've realistically been dark skinned

Edited by Zardonix on Dec 25th 2024 at 1:10:25 AM

Zardonix Since: Mar, 2024
#540: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:12:31 PM

[up][up] In real life we have P Diddy. Also saying that portraying a non white person as a jerk is problematic is far more problematic

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#541: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:12:49 PM

What trope is this being discussed for? It isn't Unfortunate Implications unless there is a citation. Unfortunate Character Design? Otherwise, this might be Off Topic.

If not, I think it is worth mentioning that there are a wide variety of skin tones in the Middle East anyway (even if the average person there would be darker skinned than the Adam and co - though not everyone). I also think it's important to note that people such as Adam and Abel being portrayed as white is something that's been a part of art in Europe for a very long time. Judaism and Christianity began in the Middle East, but they (the latter especially) spread across the whole world, and religious imagery often changed to fit the area it was being practiced in. That includes the races of the characters.

[down]That makes sense.

Edited by king15 on Dec 25th 2024 at 9:18:02 AM

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#542: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:17:38 PM

If we're bringing up tropes, I assume we're talking about RaceLift.Changing The Minority since it was edited today.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Zardonix Since: Mar, 2024
#543: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:20:14 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] I mean if you look at the quote retweets of that teaser youll see people unhappy with Abel and Peter's designs and if uou pook at any redesign of Adam, you'll see him portrayed as either ethnically ambiguous or dark skinned

Edited by Zardonix on Dec 25th 2024 at 1:21:04 AM

Zardonix Since: Mar, 2024
#544: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:22:33 PM

[up][up][up] Look at my message 2 messages up from yours

Edited by Zardonix on Dec 25th 2024 at 1:31:18 AM

ReginaldOgron5 Est Ut Squimplex Ut from Two blocks down from the Undead Burg Since: Mar, 2022 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
Est Ut Squimplex Ut
#545: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:23:37 PM

[up] As I understand it Alastor is mixed-race, this was changed before the series was officially in production and the "voodoo" aspect of his character is still a relatively downplayed one separate from all the cruelty and sadism that makes him evil similar to his asexuality (like yeah, glyphs appear when he does stuff but I'm pretty sure Voodoo isn't supposed to give you Sizeshifter powers or shadow magic). But I digress.

Again, you aren't making a distinction between verifiably real historical figures in the Bible like Jesus or Saint Peternote , and a character with no basis in history like Adam or Heracles. I don't think it's really relevant to claim that Adam was "whitewashed" when he doesn't really have a real-world ethnicity to draw from to begin with (in the sense that he's the progenitor of humanity within his own story, not that he's not from a Middle Eastern religion).

Edited by ReginaldOgron5 on Dec 25th 2024 at 1:29:18 AM

Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#546: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:25:01 PM

[up][up] If you were replying to me I don't see how your messages relate to mine. I assume the arrow count got [nja]'d.

Edited by Amonimus on Dec 25th 2024 at 12:32:43 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Zardonix Since: Mar, 2024
#547: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:39:45 PM

[up][up] Still, basically implying the progenitor of humanity and his offspring were white guys just has unfortunate implications that could've been avoided if he was more ethnically ambiguous

Edited by Zardonix on Dec 25th 2024 at 1:40:04 AM

ReginaldOgron5 Est Ut Squimplex Ut from Two blocks down from the Undead Burg Since: Mar, 2022 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
Est Ut Squimplex Ut
#548: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:47:43 PM

[up] I mean of course and there's room for debate there, but at that point we're just arguing semantics and that's still the sort of thing that shouldn't be added except in a vetted Unfortunate Implications example.

While we're on this topic, I have my doubts about this:

If you look at the images, I'm...not seeing it? The figurine clearly has a pitch-black coloration unlike any real skin color and doesn't have any staple characteristics of Blackface Style Caricatures (oversized red lips, an exaggerated nose, etc.) It's quite literally just "Alastor if his entire body, suit included, was midnight black."

Edited by ReginaldOgron5 on Dec 25th 2024 at 1:48:22 AM

Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#549: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:50:23 PM

I don't personally see it either, but this isn't the first time I've seen a character be criticized for being literally black like this. Vantablack from My Hero Academia also had it. So I can at least believe that it's a real issue people have.

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RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#550: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:51:33 PM

It's not a Race Lift of any stripe, though, which would be the key part. The mythological, earliest biblical figures don't come from a place that exists on Earth, don't belong to any given ethnic group because those all come later, and don't have a historical counterpart.

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Deciding on how to split off a character subpage for the Vees from Characters.Hazbin Hotel Overlords Of Hell, as discussed here and here. Namely, 1) What should the title of the page be? 2) Should the page include employees of the Vees?

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