Vivienne Medrano's works, namely Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss (collectively known as the Hellaverse), are fairly popular but also quite divisive online, even or especially amongst certain fans. This has caused several edit wars that have been brought up several times to ATT, "Is This An Example?", and several other cleanup threads. This is due to a combination of vocal critics and detractors of the Hellaverse adding extremely critical and almost complainy, disruptive edits, being countered with an equal amount of very defensive fans who attempt to justify and even censor many of the legitimate criticisms given to the show. Some entries also need fact-checking. I've decided to make this thread to clean up or discuss any misuse or tropes or just misinformation about Viv's shows in general.
Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Dec 25th 2024 at 9:40:14 PM
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The intention of the episode, as confirmed by Word of God, is that it is a Millie episode, though naturally, YMMV about whether there is enough focus or if the Millie stuff is well written. Therefore, it should be counted as a Millie episode, and just mention in the YMMV that many don't consider it to be.
Edited by king15 on Jul 4th 2024 at 11:23:11 AM
I agree that it should be Broken Base because despite Word of God, most people I've seen discuss it thought it was yet another Moxxie episode.
Oissu!- Karmic Overkill: The C.H.E.R.U.B.s (barring Collin since he was more or less the Token Good Teammate) were meant to be Hate Sinks, with Cleetus for seeing their act of redeeming Lyle as nothing more than a job, and Keenie for her self-righteous attitude and implied prejudice towards Imps. However, some viewers didn’t think their crimes were bad enough to fit the punishment of getting kicked out of Heaven for accidentally killing Lyle. Even if you use the argument that the C.H.E.R.U.B.s shouldn’t have resorted to violence, the I.M.P.s kept getting in their way and it was clear at that point that talking it out with demons who kill for a living was out of the question.
I intend to delete as it was intended to come off as unfairly excessive (Collin being so punished, foreshadowing how unfair Heaven is in Hazbin Hotel) while Karmic Overkill must be unintentional. Any objections?
Does Sera count? It seems to be less over whether people think she is a good character or not, and mostly over whether she is irredemable or sympathetic (and which the narrative intends, so not Unintentionally Unsympathetic), which might be better suited under Alternative Character Interpretation (though this mainly comes down to whether Base-Breaking character includes characters where things like that are in question, perhaps Broken-Base would be better?).
A lot of the entries for both Broken Base and Base-Breaking character I'm not sure about. Lucifer does have detractors, but they seem to be much, much smaller than his fans (though it might just be that they are less vocal), so I'm not sure if there is enough division for him to be Base-Breaking. Same goes for Episode 4, I have seen some negative reactions to it, but the most frequent reaction I've seen from fans, general audiences and critics is that it's well-handled and even where the show Grew the Beard. Once again, this isn't because I disagree that a lot of people dislike it, just that I don't know whether it's enough people to be truly base-breaking.
Edited by king15 on Jul 20th 2024 at 11:28:52 AM
"Masquerade" is genuinely Base-Breaking, I've seen so much infighting in the fandom for that episode.
Btw, would a Contested Sequel entry be valid for Helluva Boss? I know it's spin-off and came first before Hazbin's official show, but still.
Fair enough on Masquerade, I hadn't seen much of the infighting, but I can imagine it existing.
As for Helluva Boss being contested, I'm not sure. Season 1, from what I've seen, has its fair share of detractors, but for the most part, it's well liked. In many ways, it seems to be less divisive than Hazbin Hotel itself (though that might be the comparative smaller audience HB has by virtue of being exclusively Web Animation). While Season 2 of HB is very divisive, to say the least, that would fall more under Broken Base and Contested Sequel for HB. Furthermore, the fact that HB Season 1 and half of 2 released before HH proper released (though after the pilot) makes it further ambiguous as an example. I personally would be against adding Contested Sequel as an example, though acknowledge that I might not be familiar enough with how how contested the fanbase finds HB as a whole.
Edited by king15 on Jul 21st 2024 at 6:51:45 PM
For some reason, the writeup of the Hazbin/Smiling Friends Fandom Rivalry cannot be settled on. This was added recently to what was already close to becoming a Wall of Text with the edit reason "Troper added Smiling Friends critiques without acknowledging why Smiling Friends fans might not like Hazbin Hotel. coming across as heavily biased towards Hazbin".
- While those who prefer Smiling Friends will point out Hazbin's over reliance on swearing and sexual humour, its inconsistent messaging and plot holes and the unfortunate implications of hell being mostly populated by LGBTQIA+ people coming across as less of a sincere adult comedy and more of an edgy teens first attempt at creative writing.
Personally, examining the example as it was it already provided a pretty fair and balanced representation of both sides (their differing strains of comedy, their different perspectives on their roots as indie internet projects), and this seems like the pendulum swinging too hard in the opposite direction ("its inconsistent messaging and plot holes" could be a reason for anyone to dislike any show, "unfortunate implications" is obviously only not a pothole to Unfortunate Implications because it's flame bait that requires citations now, "edgy teen's first attempt at creative writing" is just complaining and a common canard of Vivienne Medrano's hatedom).
I don't watch Smiling Friends, but there sure has to be a way to document this so that neither side feels underrepresented without devolving into straight-up bashing, right?
Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!
Revert it without the LGBT Unfortunate Implications stuff
The criticisms Hazbin fans have about SF's mostly unserious tone and how the internet celebs are getting gimmicky and SF fans criticisms about Hazbin's Sir Swears-a-Lot humor can stick
Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jul 23rd 2024 at 12:08:44 AM
I think the LGBT part is a real criticism. I've seen people say it's a bad look that all the LGBT cast members we've seen so far are in hell while there are at least two homophobic angels (Lute and arguably Adam). It's a reason the conservative Periphery Demographic watch the show.
Edited by PhiSat on Jul 24th 2024 at 8:25:42 AM
Oissu!...Even though those characters are portrayed sympathetically? Also. Vaggie was literally one of the angels and her sexuality didn't factor into her landing in hell.
I mean, if they're legit issues people have I suppose they should be mentioned. It just seems odd to me, mostly because we don't know the angels well enough to really judge yet.
Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 24th 2024 at 1:39:37 PM
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallAlso, from little was shown, Heaven has LGBTQIA+ as well (subjective) while Hell has straight people, so the argument is odd.
Edited by Amonimus on Jul 24th 2024 at 8:53:51 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupI really think it's just a consequence of the creator setting a show in hell but also wanting to be inclusive to LGBTQ+ people. So it results in a show where a large percentage of the cast is LGBTQ+, but this cast happens to be demons and sinners and fallen angels and the like while heaven is contrasted with the aggressively heteronormative Adam. I think people are otherwise reading into it too deeply. These things are not always intentional or even obvious to the creator.
Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 24th 2024 at 1:57:57 PM
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallI don't think it's intentional on the part of the creators, and for all we know later seasons will give us LGBT angels and Lute's comment about lesbian relationships being an abomination is just a fluke (or was meant to be about demons and angels rather than lesbians, though Adam's comment about it being hot right after does suggest it was aimed as lesbians). But it's definitely a sentiment I have seen on the Internet that it's unfortunate that all the current confirmed LGBT characters are Sinners, and Unfortunate Implications are often accidental.
Edited by PhiSat on Jul 24th 2024 at 11:08:47 AM
Oissu!Again, Vaggie isn't a sinner. She's a fallen angel. So she was in heaven first.
If this is a legit concern people have then I understand, but I feel like people are making a mountain out of a molehill here since we don't actually know enough members of heaven to judge.
Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 24th 2024 at 2:11:35 PM
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallThis could make for a good Unfortunate Implications entry as long as we find an article discussing it
But as people have been saying, it kind of falls apart when you take a closer examination to the greater world, and I feel like an example like that would become a magnet for natter trying to explain how it's not the case.
The Hellaverse's position is pretty clearly "There are a lot of queer characters, most of whom are in Hell because that's the primary focus", not "All of the LGBT+ characters are in Hell and none are in Heaven". If anything, that could make for a decent Fandom-Enraging Misconception entry.
Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!
It's not Fandom-Enraging Misconception because it's people within the fandom who think the implications are unfortunate.
Again, whether the view is the most "accurate" to what's going on doesn't matter. It's the audience reaction that matters.
Oissu!If we can find a valid source I'm fine with an entry. You don't have to agree with the mindset to have an example up, and natter is less likely since UI examples can't go on YMMV pages anymore.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Crown Description:
Deciding on how to split off a character subpage for the Vees from Characters.Hazbin Hotel Overlords Of Hell, as discussed here

I've even seen people in the Helluva Boss discussion thread that disagree that this is a Millie episode