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Hellaverse Cleanup (Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss)

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Vivienne Medrano's works, namely Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss (collectively known as the Hellaverse), are fairly popular but also quite divisive online, even or especially amongst certain fans. This has caused several edit wars that have been brought up several times to ATT, "Is This An Example?", and several other cleanup threads. This is due to a combination of vocal critics and detractors of the Hellaverse adding extremely critical and almost complainy, disruptive edits, being countered with an equal amount of very defensive fans who attempt to justify and even censor many of the legitimate criticisms given to the show. Some entries also need fact-checking. I've decided to make this thread to clean up or discuss any misuse or tropes or just misinformation about Viv's shows in general.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Dec 25th 2024 at 9:40:14 PM

AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#276: Jul 4th 2024 at 4:20:56 PM

[up] The Broken Base partly covers that, but it's arguing over whether it is a Millie episode rather than if it was a well-written Millie episode

I've even seen people in the Helluva Boss discussion thread that disagree that this is a Millie episode

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#277: Jul 4th 2024 at 4:22:31 PM

I think it was intended to be a Millie episode but failed at it and instead comes off as a Moxxie and Blitzo episode.

Oissu!
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#278: Jul 4th 2024 at 4:23:03 PM

[up][up]The intention of the episode, as confirmed by Word of God, is that it is a Millie episode, though naturally, YMMV about whether there is enough focus or if the Millie stuff is well written. Therefore, it should be counted as a Millie episode, and just mention in the YMMV that many don't consider it to be.

Edited by king15 on Jul 4th 2024 at 11:23:11 AM

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#279: Jul 4th 2024 at 4:24:39 PM

I agree that it should be Broken Base because despite Word of God, most people I've seen discuss it thought it was yet another Moxxie episode.

Oissu!
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#280: Jul 17th 2024 at 1:24:38 PM

YMMV.Helluva Boss

I intend to delete as it was intended to come off as unfairly excessive (Collin being so punished, foreshadowing how unfair Heaven is in Hazbin Hotel) while Karmic Overkill must be unintentional. Any objections?

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#281: Jul 17th 2024 at 1:26:35 PM

I agree with your delete. While it's meant to be somewhat satisfying to see these antagonists get their comeuppance, it's still meant to be so in a Black Comedy way due to how over the top the punishment (and their reactions) was.

Echidna from Ontario, Canada (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Two-timing
#282: Jul 17th 2024 at 2:07:40 PM

I do believe it was meant to be black comedy than anything that is considered Karmatic here.

BlackLiquidSorrow from meh Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#283: Jul 20th 2024 at 4:08:20 PM

Do Lucifer and Adam really belong on Base-Breaking Character? At least in my circles, they tend to be pretty well liked. Mimzy counts but I'm not too sure about Sera.

Edited by BlackLiquidSorrow on Jul 20th 2024 at 4:08:29 AM

AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#284: Jul 20th 2024 at 4:14:27 PM

[up] Yes they both do, especially Adam. He is wholly divisive as people either find him hilarious and cool or just annoying and a waste of potential

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#285: Jul 20th 2024 at 4:26:01 PM

Does Sera count? It seems to be less over whether people think she is a good character or not, and mostly over whether she is irredemable or sympathetic (and which the narrative intends, so not Unintentionally Unsympathetic), which might be better suited under Alternative Character Interpretation (though this mainly comes down to whether Base-Breaking character includes characters where things like that are in question, perhaps Broken-Base would be better?).

A lot of the entries for both Broken Base and Base-Breaking character I'm not sure about. Lucifer does have detractors, but they seem to be much, much smaller than his fans (though it might just be that they are less vocal), so I'm not sure if there is enough division for him to be Base-Breaking. Same goes for Episode 4, I have seen some negative reactions to it, but the most frequent reaction I've seen from fans, general audiences and critics is that it's well-handled and even where the show Grew the Beard. Once again, this isn't because I disagree that a lot of people dislike it, just that I don't know whether it's enough people to be truly base-breaking.

Edited by king15 on Jul 20th 2024 at 11:28:52 AM

AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#286: Jul 21st 2024 at 8:43:42 AM

[up] "Masquerade" is genuinely Base-Breaking, I've seen so much infighting in the fandom for that episode.


Btw, would a Contested Sequel entry be valid for Helluva Boss? I know it's spin-off and came first before Hazbin's official show, but still.

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#287: Jul 21st 2024 at 8:58:20 AM

Fair enough on Masquerade, I hadn't seen much of the infighting, but I can imagine it existing.

As for Helluva Boss being contested, I'm not sure. Season 1, from what I've seen, has its fair share of detractors, but for the most part, it's well liked. In many ways, it seems to be less divisive than Hazbin Hotel itself (though that might be the comparative smaller audience HB has by virtue of being exclusively Web Animation). While Season 2 of HB is very divisive, to say the least, that would fall more under Broken Base and Contested Sequel for HB. Furthermore, the fact that HB Season 1 and half of 2 released before HH proper released (though after the pilot) makes it further ambiguous as an example. I personally would be against adding Contested Sequel as an example, though acknowledge that I might not be familiar enough with how how contested the fanbase finds HB as a whole.

Edited by king15 on Jul 21st 2024 at 6:51:45 PM

ReginaldOgron5 Est Ut Squimplex Ut from Two blocks down from the Undead Burg Since: Mar, 2022 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
Est Ut Squimplex Ut
#288: Jul 22nd 2024 at 7:19:17 AM

For some reason, the writeup of the Hazbin/Smiling Friends Fandom Rivalry cannot be settled on. This was added recently to what was already close to becoming a Wall of Text with the edit reason "Troper added Smiling Friends critiques without acknowledging why Smiling Friends fans might not like Hazbin Hotel. coming across as heavily biased towards Hazbin".

  • While those who prefer Smiling Friends will point out Hazbin's over reliance on swearing and sexual humour, its inconsistent messaging and plot holes and the unfortunate implications of hell being mostly populated by LGBTQIA+ people coming across as less of a sincere adult comedy and more of an edgy teens first attempt at creative writing.

Personally, examining the example as it was it already provided a pretty fair and balanced representation of both sides (their differing strains of comedy, their different perspectives on their roots as indie internet projects), and this seems like the pendulum swinging too hard in the opposite direction ("its inconsistent messaging and plot holes" could be a reason for anyone to dislike any show, "unfortunate implications" is obviously only not a pothole to Unfortunate Implications because it's flame bait that requires citations now, "edgy teen's first attempt at creative writing" is just complaining and a common canard of Vivienne Medrano's hatedom).

I don't watch Smiling Friends, but there sure has to be a way to document this so that neither side feels underrepresented without devolving into straight-up bashing, right?

Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!
AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#289: Jul 22nd 2024 at 7:29:53 AM

[up] Revert it without the LGBT Unfortunate Implications stuff

The criticisms Hazbin fans have about SF's mostly unserious tone and how the internet celebs are getting gimmicky and SF fans criticisms about Hazbin's Sir Swears-a-Lot humor can stick

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jul 23rd 2024 at 12:08:44 AM

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#290: Jul 24th 2024 at 8:23:21 AM

[up]I think the LGBT part is a real criticism. I've seen people say it's a bad look that all the LGBT cast members we've seen so far are in hell while there are at least two homophobic angels (Lute and arguably Adam). It's a reason the conservative Periphery Demographic watch the show.

Edited by PhiSat on Jul 24th 2024 at 8:25:42 AM

Oissu!
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#291: Jul 24th 2024 at 10:39:20 AM

...Even though those characters are portrayed sympathetically? Also. Vaggie was literally one of the angels and her sexuality didn't factor into her landing in hell.

I mean, if they're legit issues people have I suppose they should be mentioned. It just seems odd to me, mostly because we don't know the angels well enough to really judge yet.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 24th 2024 at 1:39:37 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#292: Jul 24th 2024 at 10:53:26 AM

Also, from little was shown, Heaven has LGBTQIA+ as well (subjective) while Hell has straight people, so the argument is odd.

Edited by Amonimus on Jul 24th 2024 at 8:53:51 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#293: Jul 24th 2024 at 10:57:26 AM

I really think it's just a consequence of the creator setting a show in hell but also wanting to be inclusive to LGBTQ+ people. So it results in a show where a large percentage of the cast is LGBTQ+, but this cast happens to be demons and sinners and fallen angels and the like while heaven is contrasted with the aggressively heteronormative Adam. I think people are otherwise reading into it too deeply. These things are not always intentional or even obvious to the creator.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 24th 2024 at 1:57:57 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#294: Jul 24th 2024 at 11:06:36 AM

I don't think it's intentional on the part of the creators, and for all we know later seasons will give us LGBT angels and Lute's comment about lesbian relationships being an abomination is just a fluke (or was meant to be about demons and angels rather than lesbians, though Adam's comment about it being hot right after does suggest it was aimed as lesbians). But it's definitely a sentiment I have seen on the Internet that it's unfortunate that all the current confirmed LGBT characters are Sinners, and Unfortunate Implications are often accidental.

Edited by PhiSat on Jul 24th 2024 at 11:08:47 AM

Oissu!
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#295: Jul 24th 2024 at 11:09:41 AM

Again, Vaggie isn't a sinner. She's a fallen angel. So she was in heaven first.

If this is a legit concern people have then I understand, but I feel like people are making a mountain out of a molehill here since we don't actually know enough members of heaven to judge.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 24th 2024 at 2:11:35 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#296: Jul 24th 2024 at 11:16:00 AM

I don't disagree with you. But the important part is what the audience reaction is, and I'm just letting you know I have very often seen criticism of the LGBT rep in the show because of the majority of the LGBT characters being in Hell.

Oissu!
AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#297: Jul 24th 2024 at 7:02:30 PM

This could make for a good Unfortunate Implications entry as long as we find an article discussing it

ReginaldOgron5 Est Ut Squimplex Ut from Two blocks down from the Undead Burg Since: Mar, 2022 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
Est Ut Squimplex Ut
#298: Jul 25th 2024 at 7:26:21 AM

[up] But as people have been saying, it kind of falls apart when you take a closer examination to the greater world, and I feel like an example like that would become a magnet for natter trying to explain how it's not the case.

The Hellaverse's position is pretty clearly "There are a lot of queer characters, most of whom are in Hell because that's the primary focus", not "All of the LGBT+ characters are in Hell and none are in Heaven". If anything, that could make for a decent Fandom-Enraging Misconception entry.

Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#299: Jul 25th 2024 at 7:32:14 AM

[up]It's not Fandom-Enraging Misconception because it's people within the fandom who think the implications are unfortunate.

Again, whether the view is the most "accurate" to what's going on doesn't matter. It's the audience reaction that matters.

Oissu!
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#300: Jul 25th 2024 at 10:11:41 AM

If we can find a valid source I'm fine with an entry. You don't have to agree with the mindset to have an example up, and natter is less likely since UI examples can't go on YMMV pages anymore.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall

Projects: Short Term: Vees character page
15th Oct '25 9:41:45 PM

Crown Description:

Deciding on how to split off a character subpage for the Vees from Characters.Hazbin Hotel Overlords Of Hell, as discussed here and here. Namely, 1) What should the title of the page be? 2) Should the page include employees of the Vees?

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