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What to be done with Snoot Game

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A cleanup thread for Snoot Game was recently closed as it was getting off-topic, here is a brief rundown of the game and the thread.

Goodbye Volcano High was announced in 2020 and released in 2023. The game features a Non-Binary protagonist, Fang, and other LGBTQ characters. In 2021, a group of 4channers under the name 'Cavemanon' who strongly disliked the look of GVH released an anti-fangame named Snoot Game, involving characters from Goodbye Volcano High but in a more anti-LGBT and alt-right adjacent narrative. Snoot Game has two good endings and two bad endings; a mandatory part of both good endings is Fang rejecting being Non-Binary, and in the bad endings, where Fang remains Non-Binary, they either commit a school-shooting and then kill themselves, or they became a washed-up failure who is implied to be addicted to drugs.

Needless to say, with this is mind - as well as the fact that the game was created when all that was known about Goodbye Volcano High is that 'it will be a video game with a Non-Binary protagonist', Snoot Game is pretty openly a project borne out of spite and anti-LGBT sentiment. The cleanup thread was distracted by some back and forth over this, and got more heated when someone in the thread who had been critical of Snoot Game revealed that they had recently been doxxed by irate fans; in addition, it turned out that some people on 4chan were actively monitoring the thread. So as not to scare-monger, the troper in question had been vocally critical of Snoot Game off-site, so this wasn't a case of someone being doxxed solely for being critical of a work in a TVTropes cleanup thread, but it still underlies that this is a rather contentious and unpleasant work to cover.

So the question now is, what is to be done with the pages for Snoot Game? They require a cleanup, but the cleanup thread was just locked. It's gotten the attention of people off-site who we absolutely do not want the attention of, and we especially don't want to invite any edits from them; while this is not our fault or responsibility, it's still something to take into account. For these reasons I would suggest just cutting it. Also, not trying to solidify my position as the objectively correct one but I feel it is relevant to the discussion; before the cleanup thread was locked then we had seven tropers in agreement - including two who were previously defending the work - that a cut was the best course of action, given the difficulty of covering the work neutrally, the impossibility of agreeing how to 'neutrally' cover a work which is simultaneously explicit and coy about its degree of anti-LGBT-ness, and the fact that a troper - albeit not due to their participation on the thread - had been doxxed by fans of the game.

Obviously any final decision ultimately comes down to the moderation team and we will all respect that, but also a final reason why I would favour a cut is that this work has been discussed in the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment thread, then Troping Works That Promote Bigotry, then it's own cleanup thread, then back to Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment thread, and now I have been told that it should be brought to its own thread on Wiki Talk, so... if it was cut then we could at least all put this behind us.

Please discuss! I mean, if you feel like it.

Elmo3000 from UK Since: Jul, 2013
#26: Oct 14th 2023 at 6:46:31 PM

[up]I'm torn between not wanting to risk the same thing that happened in the cleanup thread to happen here, where it just becomes a back-and-forth disagreement over the extent of the bigotry in the work, but I also really can't not acknowledge the phrase 'the most benign transphobic message,' especially as the description of an aesop that begins "Trans people are delusional, but-" You really don't have to - and shouldn't! - point out that a transphobic message is the kindest and gentlest transphobic message that you've ever seen.

... That's an unfortunate page-topper. In other news, I count 14 people in favour of cutting, and while some would prefer a lock, nobody seems particularly opposed to cutting, so... it's only been one page, not sure if that qualifies as a community consensus, but good to keep track, I guess?

Not sure if this would require a separate topic or if it's related enough, but the Snoot Game devs are apparently working on another... I want to say anti-fangame because they clearly did not like Goodbye Volcano High and it's another game featuring a GVH character, but only a short demo has been released and there's no current indication that it contains hard-to-trope bigotry or would cause any future drama, other than 'It's another project by the Snoot Game devs.' It's named I Wani Hug that Gator! and it has its own small page. No indication that it is or is not part of the wider Snooter-verse, so... I guess I just wanted to make everyone aware, it's a page to keep an eye on if it causes any problems in the future.

plakythebirb The Unwilling Cycle from The Deep South (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Unwilling Cycle
#27: Oct 14th 2023 at 7:04:04 PM

Noting that I'm opposed to a permanent cut, as I feel that the drama related to this game is eventually going to die down to the point where there simply won't be an active enough interest in the work to cause any major drama.

Welcome To Ideals' World
Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
Calabash.
#28: Oct 14th 2023 at 7:05:59 PM

[up][up] Voting for a preemptive cut that page in case.

Eh, good enough.
Serilly (he/any) from Spawn City (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I wanna be your sledgehammer
(he/any)
#29: Oct 14th 2023 at 7:16:42 PM

i am against cutting the gator game until there is significant reason to believe it has similar issues/will cause similar outcomes

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dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#30: Oct 14th 2023 at 7:24:45 PM

Reading through the original thread and this game, I'm all for just cutting the page.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Acebrock He/Him from So-Cal Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
He/Him
#31: Oct 14th 2023 at 7:39:21 PM

Anti-trans bigotry trying to hide itself behind a veil of not being trwnsphobic (or whatever this is trying to do to maintain a veil of legitimacy and hide its bigotry) has no place on the wiki. Cut it and send it to the prlc.

My troper wall
plakythebirb The Unwilling Cycle from The Deep South (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Unwilling Cycle
#32: Oct 14th 2023 at 8:05:13 PM

Still don't feel like PRLC is necessary when it's entirely possible that in a year's time people simply may not care enough to cause drama in cleaning up the page.

Welcome To Ideals' World
Elmo3000 from UK Since: Jul, 2013
#33: Oct 14th 2023 at 9:07:35 PM

[up]I can see your point, as you said on the previous page "it's likely that at some future most of the people causing all the ruckus will either be banned or moved on to something else." But this is also one of those works where, without the people causing all the ruckus, would the page have ever been created in the first place?

I wouldn't be vehemently opposed to cutting without adding to the PRLC, in case anyone wanted to make a more accurate page in the future, but I also can't really see anyone who isn't a big fan of Snoot Game wanting to make a page for it in the first place.

Akriloth2160 a.k.a. Artemy Musha from the UK Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
a.k.a. Artemy Musha
#34: Oct 15th 2023 at 1:24:41 AM

I've lurked in the other threads so far, and I'm just chiming in to add another "in favour of cutting" to the proceedings. For reasons brought up already in this thread, I wouldn't add it to the PRLC for now, but I wouldn't push back against it, especially if it ends up getting recreated and the same back-and-forth starts up again.

Ronnie, Ronnie
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#35: Oct 15th 2023 at 5:34:48 AM

A correction regarding I Wani Hug that Gator!: the end of the description says that Olivia (the "gator") appeared as a background character in Snoot Game. So there is a connection, but one that doesn't need much of a mention if the page for the first game gets cut.

Not throwing in my vote on a Snoot Game cut yet, because I'm still on the fence. My personal preference would be to keep and lock (and we should be able to say clearly whether or not it's transphobic), but then there's the offsite drama...

Boredman from the divided circus tent of america (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#36: Oct 15th 2023 at 1:56:20 PM

I Wani Hug That Gator does not feature a GVH character. It's an apparent spinoff, but none of the cast so far is from GVH or Snoot Game. I've looked through the assets in Snoot Game and couldn't find Olivia anywhere. I'm pretty sure she was thought up by a random person in a Snoot Game thread after it was released. And it doesn't seem to touch on anything LGBTQ-related like Snoot Game did, just based on the demo. The protagonist this time isn't an edgy 4chan loser, but rather an asocial new kid with an interest in photography.

I don't follow the reasoning behind pre-emptively cutting something just because of drama around another work the creators made.

[up]x10

Hence why I said "if". I still don't think that someone who actually plays through it will take away anything but the most mild transphobic message. So while we're talking about how harmful the work is, even if we assume that the audience would take away a transphobic message, convincing bigots that they should be kind to trans people doesn't seem that bad, relatively speaking.

And maybe I've just been around more uncivil places too much, but the argument in the last thread didn't seem like it was that out of line, at least at first. A few people were saying I should be reported/ignored just for defending the game, but it mostly stayed on topic.

Once a user was doxxed and harassed elsewhere, that's when it went more off the rails. Accusations of other posters brigading from 4chan started being made, and people flooded in to ask for the page to be cut or locked.

In light of the harassment, I can understand wanting to lock the page, just to prevent worse drama from spreading here too. I'd prefer not to, but I can go along with what others think is best. I just don't like letting trolls control the conversation.

[up][up][up] "But this is also one of those works where, without the people causing all the ruckus, would the page have ever been created in the first place?"

Yes, it would have. I know it may seem hard to believe, but there are a lot of Snoot Game fans/enjoyers who aren't raging bigots and trolls.

Edited by Boredman on Oct 15th 2023 at 4:42:32 AM

Elmo3000 from UK Since: Jul, 2013
#37: Oct 15th 2023 at 2:46:11 PM

[up]Alright, the page claimed that Olivia was a background character in Goodbye Volcano High... or in Snoot Game? One of the two, sorry.

Once again saying that you really absolutely do not have to point out that - in your own words - the message "Trans people are all delusional, but with enough patience and support, maybe they could 'snap out of it'," is 'mild' or 'benign' transphobia. I don't think a lot of trans people would appreciate being told that there is a mild and benign way of saying that they are all delusional and need to snap out of it.

Boredman from the divided circus tent of america (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#38: Oct 15th 2023 at 3:04:04 PM

[up]You're still missing my point. I'll reiterate it again. "Convincing bigots that they should be kind to trans people doesn't seem that bad, relatively speaking."

If you think it's pointless to differentiate between extreme and mild bigotry, and the actual impact of it, I don't know what to tell you.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#39: Oct 15th 2023 at 3:17:37 PM

Again though, that's assuming that the endings have no relevance when it comes to the overall message. It reads less as "be kind to Trans people period" and more "be kind to Trans people because they're confused and misguided and need to be helped before they hurt themselves or others".

Anyway, I personally feel like the drama surrounding a work is more valid a reason to cut than the politics of the work, mostly because the controversy has a more clear and direct impact and we don't want to attract bigots to the wiki. I also have zero issue with cutting a page that is too much of a mess to keep as-is. Instead of arguing over the merits or lack thereof that the work has, we should determine if keeping it actively decreases the quality of the wiki and it's community.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Elmo3000 from UK Since: Jul, 2013
#40: Oct 15th 2023 at 3:20:05 PM

[up][up]That's not the entire point though, is it? It's not 'Bigots should be kinder to trans people, end of moral,' it's 'Bigots should be kinder to trans people, because then they might realise that they were delusional to think that they were trans and snap out of it,' and that's not even getting into the horrific implications of the endings, as mentioned above.

Under no circumstances should this be described as mild or benign. It is not a mercy or an act of kindness. It's self-serving for the bigot and, at best, still extremely bigoted - but with a dash of condescending compassion - towards the LGBTQ individual.

I think at the very least this conversation is illustrating that it is basically impossible to come to an agreement on how to neutrally trope a work like this.

Edited by Elmo3000 on Oct 15th 2023 at 11:23:07 AM

Boredman from the divided circus tent of america (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#41: Oct 15th 2023 at 3:29:43 PM

"Trans people are delusional" isn't even a message that I think the game supports. That's me ceding you a ton of ground and accepting how you've exaggerated the LGBT themes.

"Treat people with empathy and let them be their own person, and they'll discover who they really are" is a much more accurate message, with a secondary message of "Nonbinary people might just be cis people trying to figure themselves out". That may sound problematic, but it happens frequently that people explore their gender identity and sexuality, and might label themselves differently when they understand themselves more fully.

This is still all aside from whether or not the wiki should even have a page on it. I don't think that there needs to be a definitive "correct" analysis of the game's themes that the page should dictate to the reader. But it's not the 'Birth of a Nation'-tier hate screed that this forum acts like, and I don't think it's justified to cut it on that grounds. Especially when most of the discussion about it has been based on secondhand information rather than looking at the work itself.

The main issue I think is whether the drama about it is too heated. And I don't like allowing bad actors and high tempers to control things.

Edited by Boredman on Oct 15th 2023 at 5:41:16 AM

Elmo3000 from UK Since: Jul, 2013
#42: Oct 15th 2023 at 3:40:49 PM

[up]Game made in response to the mere announcement of a game with a Non-Binary protagonist.

The only two good endings involves the protagonist being supported into realising they're not Non-Binary.

The only two bad endings involve them not being supported into this, remaining Non-Binary, and either wasting their life or committing a school-shooting.

Yeah, I don't want this to become the cleanup thread again. Nobody here is going to entertain the notion that this is a game about 'treating people with empathy and letting them be their own person' when it is so overwhelmingly clear that it is not.

Boredman from the divided circus tent of america (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#43: Oct 15th 2023 at 3:48:35 PM

You've made it clear that you made up your mind about it. I accept that I won't be able to convince you, or a good portion of other posters. But I think it's a massive waste to not even entertain the idea that media you have a bad shallow impression of isn't irredeemably harmful.

plakythebirb The Unwilling Cycle from The Deep South (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Unwilling Cycle
#44: Oct 15th 2023 at 3:52:34 PM

Let's drop the topic on exactly how offensive the message is so that we can focus on what we're actually doing with the page.

To start that off, reiterating my opinion on either a lock-and-clean or a temporary cut until any outside drama has simmered down.

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Boredman from the divided circus tent of america (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#45: Oct 15th 2023 at 3:59:06 PM

[up]The outside drama is worrying, but so far I haven't seen it actually spread to where it's affecting the wiki. The main objection of the cleanup thread was that the page was too gushingly positive and didn't cover the more controversial aspects.

I think that's something that can be fixed with normal discussion and editing. It's really only been on the forum that I've seen the drama.

GastonRabbit MOD C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#46: Oct 16th 2023 at 7:26:40 AM

Seconding dropping the topic on exactly how offensive the message is. Let's focus on discussing how to handle our page for the game; we already had to deal with the cleanup thread getting derailed.

Edit: Noting that I'm aware that the previous post is from yesterday; the holler I responded to wasn't sent until today, which is why there was a delay.

Edit: Pinned the header because it explains why the thread was made.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 16th 2023 at 9:37:44 AM

I got a rock for Halloween.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#47: Oct 16th 2023 at 10:15:00 AM

Is it possible to neutrally cover what sounds like a Hate Fic based entirely off of the most basic choices made about the original—and entirely out of spite. Sounds like another one of those Catch-22 situations where if you don't mention it, it's not neutral, but mentioning it is inherently sticking a big negative on the page. The chances of someone getting doxed just off editing the page seem slim, but knowing that there are people involved with it who'd do that just makes me think the entire thing isn't worth the potential hassle.

plakythebirb The Unwilling Cycle from The Deep South (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Unwilling Cycle
#48: Oct 16th 2023 at 1:18:05 PM

[up]I'm not interested in GVH, much less its sorta-fangame, but as an example of fairly neutral but still honest writing I came up with this. Not really written to standards of an actual paragraph on the wiki since, to be frank, I feel a bit dirty writing about SG at all.

"The game (Snoot) was created in response to GVH having a nonbinary protagonist, and thus its plot overall has a viewpoint against gender noncomformity."

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Elmo3000 from UK Since: Jul, 2013
#49: Oct 19th 2023 at 5:27:34 PM

[up]I think that's a good and neutral description, but then based on conversations on here with Snoot Game fans, they would claim that it wasn't made in response to Goodbye Volcano High having a Non-Binary protagonist and also that it doesn't have a viewpoint against gender non-conformity. It's an odd case where it wouldn't be difficult at all to trope Snoot Game neutrally and accurately, but troping it neutrally and accurately in a way that both parties - Snoot fans and critics - could agree on is close to impossible.

AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#50: Oct 19th 2023 at 5:29:50 PM

Reading through everything, I'm still leaning to just cut Snoot. Yes, a lock and cleanup could certainly help and attention to the game could die down, but I honestly think the edit and drama wars will still continue (just in a smaller way) and that I do not want on this site.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Oct 19th 2023 at 12:30:04 PM

Wiki Talk: Snoot Game
31st Oct '23 8:36:59 PM

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