How sweet it is
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Can shapeshift (probably)
I almost feel like this is a case of Missing Supertrope Syndrome, given the Witches and Wizards index has Not That Kind of Mage; that predates white MG by at least a couple years (including the time the trope was known as Staff Chick) and has a description mentioning the "support" role like the latter, despite BMG being called "almost the inverse of" it...with no elaboration. The closest supertrope I can think of is some form of Badass Creed.
In favor of cutting and rolling though.
Edited by Coachpill on Sep 18th 2023 at 1:03:44 PM
Silver and gold, silver and gold
the Retromancer
I think these are valid archetypes, and the common lack of characterization can be folded into ZCE, which is typical of archetype tropes that attract "is one" examples.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
My first thought (I dont play JRP Gs) is to merge into White Mage and Black Mage, and associated personality traits rolled into the descriptions of those tropes.
low-poly Shinri
IMO, I think the concept of a "kind-hearted, pacifistic White Mage" and a "spunky, energetic Black Mage" is tropeworthy enough. Just rename and remove the gendered aspect.
Edited by Ayumi-chan on Sep 18th 2023 at 5:33:59 PM
She/Her | Currently cleaning N/A
I think both concepts are tropeworthy, but the amount of examples in the wick checks that use the tropes as synonyms for White Mage and Black Mage makes me feel it'd be better to cut and yard.
Hi! :3
Cut and yard unless someone has a better suggestion
Edited by StalkerGamer on Sep 18th 2023 at 10:24:01 AM
Merge White Magician Girl and Black Magician Girl to White Mage and Black Mage for now.
We can yard the "gentle and demure healer" and "spunky attacker" concepts. I'm not even convinced these archetypes need to be limited to magic users in a fantasy setting.
Edited by Adept on Sep 20th 2023 at 2:05:58 AM
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
Agreeing with above.
MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates
How sweet it is
Yeah, merge + yard does sound good.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
I feel there's a tie in to Personality Powers here, I guess having an entry about Healing Hands on the page would cover White Magician Girl though and Elemental Personalities seems to cover Black Magician Girl...
Some people say I'm lazy. It's hard to disagree.
These are definitely valid archetypes, and I don't get how cutting them would solve the problem.
Both WMG and BMG are significant Stock Characters, and they are in fact broader than it's summed up in the OP. Both tropes allow gender-flipped examples, and WMG in particular has a couple of examples that rely on nanomachines for healing. The problem here is that people focus on "White/Black Magician" part, and describe how they are healers/damagers, even though it's primarily a personality trope.
If anything, it's White Mage and Black Mage are the ones that have problems, as they lack narrative significance. They essentially boil down to "A person who uses healing/ offensive magic" (someone have to use it, if it exists in the setting, after all), and most examples focus solely on "this character has all the heals/fireballs". BM has more variety to it, as the offence naturally tends to be more diverse, but WM right now is just The Medic. Their example lists have a significant overlap, and I believe that the former can be safely folded into the latter.
There's also the issue that not all WMs and WMGs actually use White Magic, and barely any BMs and BMGs use Black Magic. WM and BM's names come from Final Fantasy jobs, while magic tropes have more general names. In the end, most WMs Heal It with Water instead of some holy power, and BMs use Fire, Ice, Lightning, and not evil, destructive energy.
All in all, I believe that WMG and BMG should be cleaned up and renamed, WM - merged into The Medic, and BM renamed into something that doesn't evoke Black Magic - a completely separate trope.
Maybe BM could focus on use of offensive magic only, while WM on healing/support magic only? (I am a bit unsure about the difference between a healer and a cleric.)
The Protomen enhanced my life.
the Retromancer
Nothing can be done with WM and BM until they get own checks (and probably thread), so suggestions have to be limited to the magician girl pages.
Edited by Amonimus on Sep 19th 2023 at 12:17:04 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
This discussion seems to have stilled, should Black Mage and White Mage get a wick check before this discussion is continued?
Some people say I'm lazy. It's hard to disagree.
Yep, I'm of the opinion that of the tropes in this overlapping pileup, it's specifically White Mage and Black Mage that have problems and would deserve a check. While they're somewhat nebulous, I still would recognize White Magician Girl and Black Magician Girl as their own valid individual character archetypes widely observed in media — cute female magic users, one is boisterous and tomboyish and associated with destructive "black" magics, other is more typically demure and feminine and associated with "white" supporting magics.
Contrast to White Mage and Black Mage, whose base definitions are simply "person who uses White Magic or Black Magic," which I don't believe are worthy of being entirely separate characterization tropes, because they suggest nothing inherent as characterization.
Edited by number9robotic on Oct 3rd 2023 at 5:54:47 AM
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Technically, White Mage and Black Mage is not "someone who use White Magic/Black Magic". It's more about their role in a team. The White Mage focuses on support magic, while the Black Mage is an offensive damage dealer.
Edited by Adept on Oct 3rd 2023 at 8:14:37 PM
The issue that jumps to me in that regard is the use of Black Mage and White Mage outside of a gaming context. I think those archetypes can be codified relatively easy when in a context based in game design and balance, but once you get beyond that realm it looks like there are more problems — a cursory glance at the entries on their respective pages shows a lot of examples of "character who uses in magic that sounds vaguely destructive" or "vaguely healing-based", often with no context for counterpoints in team compositions. Again, a wick check would be appreciated, but first impressions don't look so hot as they end up just describing the kind of magic they use rather than anything about the character themselves and what the magic has to do with them as individuals beyond that.
Contrast this with Black Magician Girl and White Magician Girl, which on their own should carry the same general characterization tropes as being helped to codify a character on their own terms, and those remain fairly consistent across different mediums.
Edited by number9robotic on Oct 3rd 2023 at 6:30:22 AM
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Amateur Veteran
I agree that White Mage and Black Mage should be given wick checks of their before this discussion can continue. They, and the confusion caused by their having similar names to White Magic and Black Magic despite not involving those tropes, seems to be important to the ongoing problem here.
How sweet it is
I'll table White Mage and Black Mage in Wick Check Project. They can have a chance another time.
Also, I'll start a crowner for the present tropes in question (Black Magician Girl and White Magician Girl). As yarding is a free action, it'll get a mention in the crowner description.
Edited by Berrenta on Oct 4th 2023 at 9:11:14 AM
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
How sweet it is
Since both options are in the red, if anyone has other ideas, speak up.
Shelving until Black Mage and White Mage have their own thread or wick checks can be considered.
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Planeswalker
Do nothing/cleanup ZCEs and misuse, at least until the Black Mage and White Mage checks are done. I think the tropes are fine as is, they just need cleanup.
Edited by PhiSat on Oct 4th 2023 at 9:40:47 AM
Oissu!
How sweet it is
Okay, added as an option.
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Edited by Berrenta on Oct 4th 2023 at 11:51:14 AM
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
Can shapeshift (probably)
Combined my original suggestion with some of the general end goals people ITT seem to want. The misuse isn't for any large trope(s) so it won't be hard to clean up necessarily but I think there are too many contradictions and sister trope stuff (aside from just BM/WM, there's also The Red Mage and Lady of Black Magic), in addition to everything else, for there not to be a Missing Supertrope.
Edited by Coachpill on Oct 4th 2023 at 12:04:16 PM
Silver and gold, silver and gold
Crown Description:
The tropes White Magician Girl and Black Magician Girl are attracting examples that lacked context. What should be done? Both merging and cutting suggestions discussed also mention yarding the "gentle and demure healer" and "spunky attacker" concepts. This action will be performed regardless of which of the two actions is decided.
OP by amathieu13, also covers Black Magician Girl
This thread came about from questions of redundancy between White Magic, Black Magic, White Mage, Black Mage, and these two tropes [1]
. After some discussion, it became clear that Black Magician Girl and White Magician Girl are the tropes with the biggest overlap/less distinct definition, so I focused my attention on them. I thought of making separate threads for each trope given that both have 900+ wicks, but both are related and as you'll see, have the same exact issue.
Black Magician Girl and White Magician Girl are meant to be Stock Characters described as:
- Black Magician Girl: Female Black Mage who is boisterous, spunky, youthful, bit of a tomboy.
- White Magician Girl: Female White Mage who is kind, gentle, loving, supportive, classically feminine.
The descriptions for both are fairly clear about these traits, too.But the Black And White Magician Girls wick check shows that both tropes are ZCE magnets and being misused as just "female character who practices Black Magic / White Magic" at very similar rates: out of 60 wicks, for Black Magician Girl ZCE = 23% & misuse = 37%; for White Magician Girl ZCE = 28% & misuse = 35% (this isn't counting in-line uses in other trope examples that are ambiguous as to whether or not this trope is being used properly, which stands at 20% and 19% for each trope, respectively).
Given the amount of misuse and ZCE despite a fairly clear definition, the obvious solution is to rename both and clean up examples. But...
Even within the correct examples, several are edge cases, downplayed versions, or inversions. There aren't 10 straight examples of these tropes in the wick check. This could just be a case of evolving tropes, but it makes me question whether or not both of these are actual distinct archetypes and not some other trope at play. That's actually why I increased both wick checks to 60 instead of the typical 50: to see if I could/would find more straight examples easily.
Some Thoughts:
This is one of the few cases where I don't have a strong preference for a course of action other than something clearly needs to be done. What do others think?
Wick checks:
Black Magician Girl: Female Black Mage who is boisterous, spunky, youthful, bit of a tomboy.
Wicks Checked: 60
Edge cases because of the character traits either not being fully described or not 100% falling in line
White Magician Girl: Female White Mage who is kind, gentle, loving, supportive, classically feminine.
Wicks Checked: 60
Playing With examples
Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 2nd 2023 at 9:53:51 AM
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