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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#251: Nov 29th 2023 at 6:03:13 PM

As for Red Alert 1, subfactions are literally only a number. It's hard to get excited over that.

That’s the most triumphant example of why subfactions come across as filler. Because in the first game with em, they pretty much were. The bonuses and drawbacks were insignificant to the grand scheme of things.

SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#252: Nov 29th 2023 at 7:50:49 PM

@Major Tom: Sounds like you'd like the Deck system from Wargame: Red Dragon.

You can choose from a large selection of units, but only 25 in total, and 5-7 per category (i.e Infantry, Armor, IF Vs, Logistics, Helos, Aircraft, and Support). The big restrictions on the deck though come from the whether the unit belongs to NATO / Warsaw Pact, which particular Nation, and which Division or branch. If you decided to stick to the particular Divisions and branches you'll get free veteran infantry, additional unit reinforcements, and a couple of extra slots for units for certain categories.

Edited by SgtRicko on Nov 30th 2023 at 1:53:13 AM

amitakartok Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#253: Nov 29th 2023 at 10:33:57 PM

As for Red Alert 1, subfactions are literally only a number.

RA2 was supposed to be like that too, from what I remember seeing in rules.ini back in the day, it's just commented out.

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#254: Nov 30th 2023 at 12:31:01 AM

I think each country in RA 2 gets a unique unit.

Continue writing our story of peace.
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#255: Nov 30th 2023 at 1:39:14 AM

they represent the same faction tech tree but are a separate group for purposes of lore or potentially AI behavior.

How does something like Age of Mythology fit into your preferences, where there is no 'base faction' to compare the subfactions against because they essentially are mutually-exclusive branches of the tech tree?

None of this matters to me, I never played multiplayer, I'm just curious.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Nov 30th 2023 at 9:39:33 AM

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#256: Nov 30th 2023 at 5:19:19 AM

RA 2 was supposed to be like that too, from what I remember seeing in rules.ini back in the day, it's just commented out.

The same exact modifiers are in Tiberian Sun only unused. Some of it is leftover stuff from the original Red Alert. (Which was amusingly retained even as late as Yuri’s Revenge.)

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#257: Nov 30th 2023 at 5:21:02 AM

I think each country in RA 2 gets a unique unit.

They do in a sense. Except the America faction which just gets a paratroopers ability.

amitakartok Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#258: Nov 30th 2023 at 9:47:43 AM

[up][up][up] See the opinions around Company of Heroes. It uses the same system, except you're no longer obligated to make a choice because subfactions function as different Support Power trees for about 90% of the time, with subfaction-specific units almost all being call-ins rather than built. The only exceptions are subfaction-specific static defenses (which are built normally) and one faction's scout unit (which is available to all three subfactions, but has different special abilities depending on your chosen subfaction).

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#259: Dec 5th 2023 at 2:06:25 PM

Began playing Age of Empires IV. Currently doing the Norman campaign.

The controls are really in-line with StarCraft II in that most of the hotkeys are on the right side of the keyboard. Really appreciate it.

I forgot that AoE had 4 different kinds of resources. That's a lot to juggle with. I find myself mining out the gold mines pretty quickly.

One concerning thing is the Dune II level of Cosmetically Different Sides. The Norman campaign is mostly English vs. France and aside from heroes the two factions have the same units.

Continue writing our story of peace.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#260: Dec 5th 2023 at 5:50:20 PM

Isn't the whole AoE series defined by its civs having almost identical rosters of units and buildings?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#261: Dec 5th 2023 at 5:57:35 PM

Yes, Ao E 4's rosters differentiate in how certain unit lines upgrades. The archer line for England are longbows, while France's archer line turns to crossbows with upgrades.

VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#262: Dec 5th 2023 at 6:15:13 PM

Nah, AoE 4's archers have archers and crossbowmen as generic, common and separate unit lines aside from certain civilizations' differences - England's archers are replaced with longbowmen while the French's crossbowmen are replaced by Arbalétrier.

SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#263: Dec 5th 2023 at 6:38:01 PM

Wait until you play with the Mongols.

Those guys are probably the most unique faction of the bunch: almost all of their buildings can pack up and move, they can't build walls, don't need to build houses to increase their pop cap, have archer Calvary, and only use stone to research upgrades or build two units simultaneously.

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#264: Dec 5th 2023 at 7:50:57 PM

Huh, that's a bit disappointing. Subfactions in C&C have more obvious differences right out of the bat, but the Mongols to look interesting.

Continue writing our story of peace.
Yinyang107 from the True North (Decatroper) Relationship Status: Tongue-tied
#265: Dec 6th 2023 at 10:27:01 AM

Yeah, AOE as a franchise has always been defined by subtle differences between factions, with just a few unique units. Its design is rooted in older RTS design schools, before Star Craft made completely different factions the more common approach.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#266: Dec 6th 2023 at 10:59:40 AM

I’ve been thinking about squads in RTS games and a particular logical conundrum is emerging.

If a game has both squads and individual infantry and garrisoned buildings be it player built bunkers or civilian houses or whatever, why is it they have the same size of sorts?

For example in Tiberium Wars the Nod Militant Squad has nine members (ten with Confessor upgrade) and most garrisonable structures have only two or three slots to hold stuff. A building with three slots could conceivably hold 30 guys but at the same time only hold a Commando and two Engineers for the same space. 3 guys vs 30.

Would it be a worse idea to have the concept allocating around sheer number of guys regardless of squads? Say a building will hold 30 guys you can mix and match any size or quantity of squads or individual units until that 30 cap is reached.

In a roundabout way it’s kinda like how dropships sort by size in Starcraft. It can fit 2 Large units like Siege Tanks, 4 Medium ones like Hydralisks and 8 Small units like Marines. Or mix and match any combination the size allows.

Why couldn’t it be done that way like how garrisons are done in games with only individual infantry?

Am I just overthinking this?

amitakartok Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#267: Dec 6th 2023 at 11:06:08 AM

[up][up] When it comes to differences between playable factions, Cossacks is possibly the most schizophrenic.

On one end of the scale, it has Cosmetically Different Sides that only differ in what research they have or don't have.

On the other end of the scale, it also has factions composed almost entirely of nonstandard units:

  • The Turks and the Algerians have a common unit pool not shared with any other faction: Infantry cannon fodder swordsmen that have no common equivalent, Ottoman Pikemen instead of regular Pikemen, Janissaries instead of Musketeers, Spakh melee and Tatar ranged cavalry, the latter of which is the only cavalry archer unit in the game (everyone else gets Dragoons), as well as Xebecs instead of frigates.
  • The Ukrainians are made up exclusively of unique units: Serdiuk infantry instead of Musketeers, no melee infantry at all, Register Cossacks instead of Riders (ie. armored knights), Sich Cossacks available right off the bat instead of late-game Hussars, Hetman available right off the bat instead of late-game Cuirassiers, no ranged cavalry and no heavy warships.

For comparison, other factions get one (Austria, Poland, Russia) or maybe two (England) unique units, if at all. With these three factions, the game goes nuts.

[up] Company of Heroes has you covered. A US halftrack, for example, can carry up to three squads OR 12 soldiers. A US rifle squad has 6 guys, an engineer squad has 3. So you can load that halftrack with 2 rifle squads OR 1 rifle and 2 engineer squads OR 3 engineer squads.

Garrisonable structures work the same way, with an additional caveat: no matter how many troops you put into the building, how many of those can actually fire out depends on the number of windows facing the target - which matters because some building models only have windows in the front and back, but not the sides, so they can be flanked and grenaded instead of a frontal attack. Same with open-topped halftracks whose occupants can fire out with their own weapons. That being said, if there are more soldiers than windows, the game is smart enough to give priority to MGs and snipers over bog-standard rifle/SMG infantry, plus the building getting holes blasted into it by explosives frequently creates new firing positions.

Edited by amitakartok on Dec 6th 2023 at 8:42:34 PM

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#268: Dec 6th 2023 at 2:10:34 PM

Finished the Norman campaign. The first half is obviously just a warm-up to apply what you learned from the tutorial, but the second half does give a decent challenge without being too tough.

I guess this is a natural consequence of historical campaign, but the campaign is just fighting the French and occasionally other English. Maybe they should've made more campaigns but less missions for each, because it does get repetitive.

Is the English supposed to be a turtling faction like the Terrans and Imperial Guard? Most of the missions are about defending the castle.

Continue writing our story of peace.
SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#269: Dec 6th 2023 at 3:10:23 PM

Ironically it's the both the English and French who happen to be particularly efficient at turtling in AOE 4. Both get Landmark Keeps capable of producing nearly every military unit along with buffing nearby military production structures, and also have great range, the English Longbowmen are great when placed up on stone walls and their villagers have bows instead of melee weapons.

Another option is the Holy Roman Empire, thanks to their outpost towers and other structures having the Emergency repair ability or the relic structure buffs.

Edited by SgtRicko on Dec 6th 2023 at 9:10:47 PM

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#270: Dec 6th 2023 at 5:07:14 PM

Well it's hardly a surprise that the nations of Europe that are famous for building castles everywhere would have good defensive abilities.

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#271: Dec 7th 2023 at 12:54:01 AM

Finished the Hundred Years War campaign. I see it as a slightly better version of the Norman campaign. Lots of castle sieges, lots of English to kill. I like the French a little more than the English with their Royal Knights, Arbaletrier, and Cannons.

Maybe they could've just made England and France playable in the Hundred Years War campaign where they take turn being the protagonist, and axe the Norman campaign. It would make it way less repetitive.

I find it funny that the first Jeanne mission is a grueling siege and counter-siege mission, while the second Jeanne mission is a braindead A-move-to-win mission that feels like a tutorial mission instead. The final mission is also super easy and contains no base management.

Next, the Mongols.

Edited by RAlexa21th on Dec 7th 2023 at 12:55:14 PM

Continue writing our story of peace.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#272: Dec 7th 2023 at 5:24:06 AM

Company of Heroes has you covered.

Ah I see somebody has already thought out that logic. Good to know. Carry on then.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#273: Dec 7th 2023 at 2:06:26 PM

Am I the only one here who thinks that the average RTS campaign length is too short? It's like developers always feel a compulsion to wrap it up within a dozen or so missions at most.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#274: Dec 7th 2023 at 2:55:05 PM

Part of me thinks it's due to developers running out of new units to introduce after a certain point and just not having enough flexibility in the game engine to create unique scenarios to hold a player's attention. Or maybe they just believe in the idea of not letting campaigns drag on too long and keeping things concise.

Exceptions like Star Craft II's campaign exist, which I recall being more than 20 missions. But you'll notice only a handful ever used the generic "destroy the enemy base" objective: everything else had a unique setup, such as holding a small garrison town against a horde of infested colonists who attack at night, harvesting minerals while having to avoid a tide of lava that periodically rises, avoiding a wall of death that slowly sweeps up everything on the map, etc. Pretty sure it took Blizzard's team some time to craft missions of such quality and diversity.

And then you have the 4x grand strategy games like Rise of Nations or Star Wars: Empire at War, where the real draw is how each Conquest campaign plays out differently, so keeping things to around 20 hours or less makes sense.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#275: Dec 7th 2023 at 3:17:30 PM

I do agree they have a tendency to be too short. Yes I understand part of it is rolling out the tech tree piece by piece, but you could space out adding new units or structures for a mission or two even if just periodically or irregularly.

Also you could have missions where you’ve advanced up the tech tree early in a sort of A Taste of Power kind of way then have missions where you have reduced tech level and so much more.


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