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SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#226: Nov 21st 2023 at 4:56:16 AM

STAR WARS™ Empire at War: Gold Pack - Official Patch Update Thread (Updated 11/20/23)

This is amazing... for some unknown reason somebody at Lucasfilm is keeping Star Wars: Empire at War up to date. And it's not just some minor patch either: they made the game 64-bit compatible which should help resolve a good chunk of the crashes in previous 32-bit versions, and even did some additional bugfixes and rebalancing.

I suspect the answer is that someone in Lucasfilm was a die-hard fan of the game collaborated with some knowledgeable modders, but still, that sort of thing is rare in any older game's lifespan!

EDIT: Apparently it was Petroglyph's staff who created the patch and released it under Lucas Art's label... well that explains things.

Edited by SgtRicko on Nov 22nd 2023 at 2:47:27 AM

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#227: Nov 23rd 2023 at 5:42:58 PM

AOEIV is having a 50% sale today, so I'm picking it up. Been a long time since I've played an AOE. Is the population cap still 50?

Continue writing our story of peace.
VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#228: Nov 23rd 2023 at 5:45:35 PM

My brother tells me it's 200 in AoE IV.

SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#229: Nov 23rd 2023 at 10:49:56 PM

Yep, it's 200 now.

Oh yeah, and before you try to "WOLOLO" any units that strayed too close to your priests/monks, know that they now need to be carrying around a relic in order to do their conversion magic and have a considerable casting time and cooldown. Upside though that it's now an AOE effect, meaning you can potentially convert a small group of enemies or villagers in a single stroke if timed well.

VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#230: Nov 23rd 2023 at 10:57:10 PM

Wait, a thread about RTSes and we haven't said WOLOLO once in 10 pages?

That sounds kinda impressive when you said it out loud.

amitakartok Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#231: Nov 24th 2023 at 2:49:49 AM

Empire Earth had area-of-effect conversion too as a wonder effect, I think. Never seen it in action myself.

Speaking of which, Prophets as Awesome, but Impractical spellcasters really feel out of place in the game for me.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#232: Nov 24th 2023 at 5:55:13 AM

An area of effect Enemy Exchange Program? How is that not a Game-Breaker?

Was the original Wololo that weak?

SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#233: Nov 24th 2023 at 12:43:26 PM

What makes it difficult is that you need to find relics randomly scattered around the map, and there's only a handful of them. Furthermore the relics just aren't for conversion purposes: they can be placed in monasteries to generate gold and other resources, carried into battle by certain nations to act as a buff, or placed in a variety of structures by the Holy Roman Empire for bonuses. Also it takes a few seconds to activate and happens in a circular area around the monk - meaning you'll need to run the guy into the middle of a crowd first and then keep him alive.

Edited by SgtRicko on Nov 25th 2023 at 6:44:24 AM

SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#234: Nov 25th 2023 at 9:10:03 PM

We don't seem to discuss many city-development strategy games here, do we? Or other RTS titles that don't fit the ordinary mold for that matter. Probably because we seem to be mostly from the old-school crowd who preferred building armies rather than settlements, but still, I'm just wondering if anybody here dabbles in such strategy games.

Edited by SgtRicko on Nov 26th 2023 at 3:13:19 AM

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#235: Nov 28th 2023 at 11:05:42 AM

I did talk about Aliens, but yeah, I'm more into the classic "build big army to stomp the other big army."

Continue writing our story of peace.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#236: Nov 28th 2023 at 1:37:11 PM

I like the old school build bases and armies thing. Not just one or the other.

Yinyang107 from the True North (Decatroper) Relationship Status: Tongue-tied
#237: Nov 28th 2023 at 2:01:22 PM

City builders aren't RTS games, why would we discuss them here?

VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#238: Nov 28th 2023 at 2:20:27 PM

Well I mean technically the Crusader Kings and Hearts of Iron series are real-time strategy games, but I'm sure we all have the wisdom to know to not discuss them in here.

Edited by VutherA on Nov 28th 2023 at 5:21:06 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#239: Nov 28th 2023 at 2:36:52 PM

> I like the old school build bases and armies thing. Not just one or the other.

Same!Nothing like building up a massive base with huge army and then launching a huge assault on the enemy's base

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#240: Nov 28th 2023 at 3:30:35 PM

My personal favorite is to build a base and hunker down, turtle up behind a strong to impenetrable defense, then start building an army to fight back while withstanding enemy attacks before starting to soften up their forces and bases and then moving in for a final push.

If the level or opponent AI is strong enough that a tug of war in the field occurs where I repel his forces, his forces repel mine until one of us has a breakthrough and wins, that’s frequently very fun. Sometimes it’s very fun to have to attack two, three, sometimes more times before you win.

Yes I know the above is totally uncompetitive in multiplayer especially limited resource or weaker defenses games like Warcraft 3. But it’s my preferred way of fighting AI.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#241: Nov 28th 2023 at 3:34:38 PM

City builders aren't RTS games, why would we discuss them here?

Depends on the city builder.

Like, everyone says Anno is a city builder, but with very few exceptions (I think one of the futuristic Anno games files off the RTS slant entirely) it’s actually more of an RTS series where the conquest is just mostly economic.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 28th 2023 at 3:36:58 AM

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#242: Nov 29th 2023 at 12:45:00 PM

The Command & Conquer: Red Alert Series had a problem of a lopsided balance of subfaction number between the two main factions; in the original RA1, the Allies had 3 (Britain, France, Germany) versus the Soviets' 2 (Russia, Ukraine), RA1 Remastered made it even more lopsised by increasing the former to 6 (adding the previously cut Spain, Greece and Turkey), and RA2 had five Allied subfactions (America, Britain, France, Germany, and Korea)note  to the Soviets' four (Russia, Iraq, Cuba and Libya)note . RA3 doesn't suffer this, but that's simply because it eliminated the concept of subfactions altogether, so it's not relevant.

Moving away from C&C, Company of Heroes 2 has a similar imbalance between the Allied and Axis camps, with the former having three (US, Britain, USSR) to the latter's two (Wehrmacht Ostheeer, Oberkommando West).

So with that in mind, how important (or not) do you guys believe is the idea of maintaining an equal number of subfactions between each faction (or factions between each camp, if that's how it works in the game)?

I admit that it would be less glaring an issue should multiplayer/skirmish battles be specifically designed so that either there is no "only subfactions of the same faction / factions of the same camp can be allies" rule, or the existence of such a rule is paired with locking each camp to the lowest number of (sub)factions possible for each side. Of course, the latter option doesn't address the issue that having a camp with an inherently smaller pool of possible faction choices means it's that much more predictable and/or easier to prepare for, but I suppose that is only concern if the number of said factions in the faction is quite small; there's a difference in trying to prepare for 2-3 possible factions versus, say, a dozen.

That said, these solutions seem like artificial constraints, and there's a certain kind of pleasure in putting all the possible (sub)factions onto the battlefield and have the often wildly different arsenals and strategies clash and interact to their fullest extent.

Edited by MarqFJA on Nov 29th 2023 at 11:48:00 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#243: Nov 29th 2023 at 1:55:06 PM

I kinda dislike subfactions. For one, they often seem to be little more than filler. Secondly they destroy gameplay balance either with subtle nods or additions specific to a particular one being flat out better than the others. Alternatively a subfaction is so weak it’s overshadowed by the vanilla faction in every way.

If subfactions are to be done I’d do it the classic Blizzard way in the original Star Craft or Warcraft 3 sense of either an alternate tech tree for single player like the Blood Elves/High Elves or they represent the same faction tech tree but are a separate group for purposes of lore or potentially AI behavior.

I wouldn’t implement them as a multiplayer component.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#244: Nov 29th 2023 at 1:57:17 PM

or they represent the same faction tech tree but are a separate group for purposes of lore or potentially AI behavior

What do you mean by this?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#245: Nov 29th 2023 at 1:57:53 PM

@ Marq: Like you said, it's only an issue if the game forces certain factions to play on one particular team, such as in the first Company of Heroes where it was always Axis vs Allies. Co H 3 did away with that and now allows any of the factions to play alongside each other, historical accuracy be damned. Yeah, some folks complain about it, but both the gameplay and matchup variety is better overall as a result.

[up][up] I gotta disagree, subfactions are a great way to explore the game both lorewise (the subfactions can be different branches of a military, a different sect of a religion, outcasts, etc) and in terms of player content. Less work on the developer side too: you don't have to "reinvent the wheel" every time when designing subfactions yet can implement new gameplay mechanics with existing armies.

Though sometimes it really is shoddily implemented: Co H 2 has had several of the doctrines (the game equivalent to subfactions) nerfed so severely to the point where it's clear they intended to make them useless.

Edited by SgtRicko on Nov 29th 2023 at 8:06:24 PM

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#246: Nov 29th 2023 at 2:34:02 PM

It was in COH2 that camp-locking was removed, actually. And I do agree on that compulsory camp-locking is frustrating, though leaving it as a selectable option instead can be an interesting "handicap" that encourages each camp's players to capitalize on their respective strengths to cover each other weaknesses and exploit that of the enemy camp's.

Of course, that doesn't work as well if one camp had less faction options than the other, with the only option being the disadvantaged side having more than one player choosing the same faction.

Edited by MarqFJA on Nov 29th 2023 at 1:44:09 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#247: Nov 29th 2023 at 3:21:21 PM

What do you mean by this?

It can mean either separate outfits or extra armies being fought against or a separate base that has different behaviors when fighting you.

For example in Warcraft 2’s Beyond The Dark Portal expansion one of the Human levels has you fighting off an attack on what is considered the staging area and headquarters of the entire human expedition. There are three Orc bases all in different team colors. One will attack you with only basic units, another will tech up and start churning out advanced land units like Ogre-Mages and Death Knights, the last will send Dragons. Each faction was representing a different means of attacking and behavior despite all of them having the same tech tree.

A similar example is found in Warcraft 3’s “The Hunter of Shadows” mission. Three, technically four Night Elf bases, all have the same tech tree but they all behave differently. One attacks with a composite force, one attacks with air power, one attacks with uprooted Treants and the last has a special Hero unit (Cenarius) but is otherwise normal but limited to that Hero and a few other things. That last one will never attack your base.

Stuff like that is the behavior part.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#248: Nov 29th 2023 at 3:46:40 PM

Though sometimes it really is shoddily implemented

Command and Conquer Generals Zero Hour had a few hiccups like this. The America subfactions were basically 2 of 3 the same thing hiding behind air forces and superweapons with very little variation otherwise. The GLA ones were one of them was basically the vanilla faction except everything had the ability to self destruct, another was the vanilla faction but with toxins everywhere and the third was the vanilla faction minus tanks and plus the ability to hide all his structures.

They would’ve been better implemented as subdivisions of the vanilla faction to choose or swap from in real time rather than clog up the UI. Which I think was the original intention but never fully got built.

The Kane’s Wrath subfactions have design weaknesses like this as well. Would’ve been better off just combining everything as either upgrades for certain things (Avatar -> Purifier for example) or as straight additions or alternates (Zone Raider, Steel Talons stuff, etc).

That said subfaction unique stuff can be done well. For example Tesla Tanks bring unique to Russia in Red Alert 2. Can add flavor with the only nagging question being “why isn’t this everywhere?”

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#249: Nov 29th 2023 at 5:07:25 PM

I'd say only the GLA subfactions are poorly done (Both have insignificant strength over base GLA, while lacking some key features).

Reaper and Marked of Kane have notable differentiation, but could go further (Reaper needs ground artillery, while MOK needs to replace their entire infantry with Cyborgs).

Black Hand and Traveller are the best-designed subfactions, with Black Hand having a distinct infantry spam and extra hot flamethrower, and Traveller having a unique mind-control playstyle despite only having 2 new units.

As for Red Alert 1, subfactions are literally only a number. It's hard to get excited over that.

Edited by RAlexa21th on Nov 29th 2023 at 5:08:02 AM

Continue writing our story of peace.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#250: Nov 29th 2023 at 5:27:10 PM

I don't like the TW subfactions because they are deliberately designed to be overspecialized in one area, with the lack of entire types of units being given poor lore excuses IMO.

I would go into detail about how I tackled them in my reimagination of the Tiberium Universe in particular and C&C in general, but that would be pretty lengthy and this is a general RTS thread; to make a long story short, while each subfaction does have a specialty, it doesn't cripple itself by forsaking a whole area of warfare just because it's "dishonorable" or "useless", but rather reorients its arms dealing with those areas of warfare to better support and take advantage of its specialty.

For example, an armored warfare-focused subfaction is designed so that its infantry synergize with its superior tanks than normal infantry do with normal tanks, it has a good AA-specialized light vehicle contingent, and it still has an air force that focuses on providing close air support to its tanks; it won't be able to spam hordes of infantry at you or bomb you from the air into the Stone Age, and its mobile AA isn't necessarily the best, but it doesn't need to have any of that when its heavy armor force is a big enough threat that it draws much of the heat away from its supporting forces, allowing them to have an easier time in supporting said tanks and harassing the enemy when needed.

Edited by MarqFJA on Nov 29th 2023 at 4:30:36 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

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