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CanuckMcDuck1 PEPSIMAN from Japan Since: Sep, 2023 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
PEPSIMAN
#301: Feb 1st 2024 at 12:03:23 PM

I don’t really like the concept of the Token Heroic Orc. On paper, it’s a great idea to avoid falling into bad representation or stereotyping, and as another troper pointed out, averting an Always Chaotic Evil scenario. But also if it’s the bare minimum a story does, it can feel tacked on or condescending.

Do not mess with creatures which you do not understand.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#302: Feb 1st 2024 at 12:18:14 PM

I prefer Morality Kitchen Sink where anyone on any side could be good or evil. I certainly don't like having a generic "evil faction/race"

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 1st 2024 at 3:19:01 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Nukeli Since: Aug, 2018
#303: Feb 2nd 2024 at 8:25:37 AM

Animal Gender-Bender, whether it's stupidity or intentional.

In movies like Bug's Life, Antz, and Bee Movie, the protagonist and most of the cast "has" to be male despite it being unnatural and not making sense, presumably because of gender bias (sexism and ignorance are equally likely causes).

Also despite The Lion King's writers doing an admirable amount of research on the animals and presumably knowing hyenas are matriarchial, they were originally going to make the hyena trio's leader male (only changing their minds during casting when they encountered a woman whose performance they liked).

Worse, people intentionally giving their female bird OCs male coloration for "because it's prettier". What part of "sexual dimorphism" do they not understand? Does the character have to be female?

Edited by Nukeli on Feb 2nd 2024 at 6:27:37 PM

~*bleh*~
Cutegirl920fire Player 222 from the Squid Games (Five Long Years) Relationship Status: Paris holds the key to my heart
Player 222
#304: Feb 2nd 2024 at 11:08:22 AM

[up] Honestly, it doesn't sound like that big of a deal to me IMO. What if someone intentionally made their colorful female bird OC a trans gal to acknowledge that male birds are usually the colorful ones some way or another?

Nukeli, I always feel that you might be taking these pet peeve tropes of yours too seriously. It's fine to dislike such tropes but spending so much energy on hating them doesn't sound productive to me.

Edit: Also, assuming that every male-majority casts are done out of sexism and gender bias is kinda ridiculous. Like, as a bisexual woman who can relate more to women, a majority of my stories' casts are women. If I was a bisexual man who related more to men and thus my stories' casts tend to be mainly made up by men, would you say I'm sexist for having male-dominate casts? I'm not saying that a writer having a male-dominate cast out of misogyny isn't possible but that doesn't mean that every case of male dominate cast automatically indicates that sexism is at play.

Edited by Cutegirl920fire on Feb 2nd 2024 at 11:22:33 AM

CG for short
Nukeli Since: Aug, 2018
#305: Feb 2nd 2024 at 1:01:38 PM

[up]

Honestly, it doesn't sound like that big of a deal to me IMO. What if someone intentionally made their colorful female bird OC a trans gal to acknowledge that male birds are usually the colorful ones some way or another?

She was explicitly not. I asked, at which point the person said they just intentionally ignored sexual dimorphism for prettiness reasons, and insisted that the character isn't trans.

Also, assuming that every male-majority casts are done out of sexism and gender bias is kinda ridiculous.

It sure seems like something when they make fiction about eusocial insects but insist on having male protagonists and male-majority casts.

Edited by Nukeli on Feb 2nd 2024 at 11:13:50 AM

~*bleh*~
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#306: Feb 2nd 2024 at 1:16:16 PM

It could be as simple as personal preference or the ability to write men better than women. Or simple coincidence. There's no need to read into people's motives.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Nukeli Since: Aug, 2018
#307: Feb 2nd 2024 at 1:33:55 PM

[up]

How is writing women different from writing men?

~*bleh*~
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#308: Feb 2nd 2024 at 1:49:23 PM

It's not, but different writers have different levels of comfort. Someone may identify more with men or simply be bad at writing women since historically writers have indeed been bad at writing women. Someone knowing their own limitations isn't a bad thing.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Cutegirl920fire Player 222 from the Squid Games (Five Long Years) Relationship Status: Paris holds the key to my heart
Player 222
#309: Feb 2nd 2024 at 2:17:00 PM

There's no need to read into people's motives.

Exactly; you shouldn't automatically assume the worst of people. Give them the benefit of doubt. You'd been really overthinking this and giving more thought than most creators that use this trope did and you're better off using that effort into your own stories.

CG for short
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#310: Feb 3rd 2024 at 4:57:20 AM

I'm pretty firm to believer in TropesAreTools most of the time. In fact, one of the things I dislike is conflating bad executions with what is inherent to the trope itself.

Anyway, I dislike how Technician vs. Performer is often executed. It is possible to have fun while putting a lot of effort into it, and I would like to see that more in fiction.

Demetrios Lucky Seven from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Lucky Seven
#311: Feb 3rd 2024 at 8:49:41 AM

@Beautiful Eevee: I'm also not a big fan of Humans Are the Real Monsters. I never was. Though there is one thing about that trope I can't help but be amused by. ^_^;;

I noticed that in some cases, when the villain(s) of a story is/are (and in some cases were) human, then their actions get used as a good (or bad, if you prefer wink) example of humans being either bastards or the real monsters - even though the heroes and/or the villain's victim(s) are also human.

Ah yes, being a human; the cause of and solution to all of life's problems. tongue

Come on! Let's bless them all until we get fershnickered!
Nukeli Since: Aug, 2018
#312: Feb 3rd 2024 at 9:27:47 AM

When people are obsessed with the Bechdel Test and think passing it makes a work good and not misogynistic. The Bechdel Test is an absolute minimum where the bar is in the Earth's core, created to demonstrate how female characters are basically used as set dressing.

Edited by Nukeli on Feb 3rd 2024 at 7:28:13 PM

~*bleh*~
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from šŸ¤” Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#313: Feb 3rd 2024 at 9:36:37 AM

[up] That I agree with, though I understand why that is (I'd imagine stuff back then were still playing limbo with that bar)

[up][up] I can see why that disconnect happens. Most Writers Arehuman and most writers are also self critical. And there are very cynical and desperate writers that are using their craft to vent and escape. There is also the use of Fantastic Racism as allegory where humanity represents privilege in general, but that I will say is fraught with its own pitfalls.

Funnily enough the philosophy thread is discussion the souse of HATRM right now, cynicism and specially negative cynicism.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Feb 3rd 2024 at 9:40:22 AM

Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#314: Feb 3rd 2024 at 11:32:30 AM

[up] At the sake time, I've never been fond of stories that paint humans as somehow the best species. Mass Effect 2 was really bad about this as it claimed that humanity was somehow the most genetically and mentally diverse species, and that a war between us and the turians would lead to a mutual kill despite the latter's thousand year headstart.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#315: Feb 3rd 2024 at 12:03:27 PM

Part of the issue with the Bechdel test is that some totally feminist works won't pass it because of their setting (like Mulan) while things like Twilight do. It's meant to be an overall pattern, not something to rate specific works against.

Though I do think about it as a write, if only because my girls chatter about their boyfriends a lot lol, though rarely like gossip and more just sharing their feelings about the subject.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 3rd 2024 at 3:03:53 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#316: Feb 3rd 2024 at 1:39:16 PM

[up][up] Humans Are Special and Humans Are Average are both peeves of mine to different degrees because they're effectively The Chosen One and Vanilla Protagonist, respectively, on a species-wide scale. Perhaps counterintuitively, they don't even conflict with each other. They're both boring choices that fail to even try to consider the human condition creatively. (And you know the author is probably also projecting their own cultural assumptions onto the entire rest of humanity at the same time.)

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#317: Feb 3rd 2024 at 3:03:30 PM

I do find it rather irritating when a work paints humans as the big bad meanies, especially when the other characters are also very human-like anyway. Humans can certainly be bigoted, paranoid, and cruel, but painting everyone with one brush gives me a bad taste and it feels too one-sided.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Starbug Men of Letters Field Agent from Variable (Seven Years' War) Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
Men of Letters Field Agent
#318: Feb 3rd 2024 at 3:55:42 PM

Humans can certainly be bigoted, paranoid, and cruel…

And unfortunately, many of us are WAY too obvious about it.

I’ve faked death under many names. Carswell; Trelawney; Marcato; Haddo; Gallion; Felton; Riddle…
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#319: Feb 3rd 2024 at 4:49:11 PM

[up][up] There's a range. It is nice to have the trope available to push back when the "aliens want us, prey species fear us" gets too obnoxious, and I think people get sensitive about any story where there's a villainous human faction but not one that's at least as heroic. (If the villains are humans but so are the heroes, Humanity Is Flawed; if the villains are humans but so are some of the supporting cast, that's too out-of-focus for some people, even when the biggest difference between the protagonists and humans is the label.) But if the point actually is sweeping species-wide condemnation, that is also flat and boring, and more common than it should be but still not as much as it's perceived.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Feb 3rd 2024 at 2:18:19 PM

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#320: Feb 3rd 2024 at 6:32:40 PM

[up]x4 That actually reminds me of another pet peeve of mine. Settings that portray humans as the dominant species even when they logically shouldn't, at least not the sole power. Such as many fantasy that has humans somehow being the most powerful or widespread civilization even when there are beings like elves or dwarves and the like who should be capable of keeping up with, if not outright surpass us.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from šŸ¤” Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#321: Feb 3rd 2024 at 7:03:39 PM

That probably goes back to the Humans Are Average thing and the escapism by projection aspect. Most readers/players/viewers are human as welltongue

Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#322: Feb 3rd 2024 at 7:59:45 PM

[up] I think its also at least partially the fact that humans have gotten so used to being the ones in charge that we have a hard time imagining a world where that's not the case. And many times when we do, its framed as a bad thing.

Demetrios Lucky Seven from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Zazie122 from New Zealand Since: Jul, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#324: Feb 3rd 2024 at 8:39:55 PM

I know this'll just be a "me" thing and honestly it means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, but I just cannot understand the appeal of Little Bit Beastly. I don't find most of the designs I've come across in works cute, and I really don't vibe with sexual content that features characters who have animal ears/tails/others characteristics.

I don't think it's super deep and there's no real reason for it other than it being a trope that just doesn't click with me. But it's everywhere in anime/manga, and it's always made me go "Huh?" when I come across it.

It's not even the vaguely non-human thing. It's something about the presence of animal characteristics specifically.

Lymantria Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph from Toronto Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
#325: Feb 3rd 2024 at 10:18:33 PM

It can be probably funny at times, but the Badly Battered Babysitter trope can certainly bother me; specifically, what usually happens at the end of a story like this where the parents refuse to believe that their perfect child would do anything wrong, and blame/punish the babysitter for causing destruction or the like. In general, I’m no a fan of blatantly obvious Cassandra Truths, especially as comedy, and the above probably overlaps with my dislike for Adults Are Useless.

Edited by Lymantria on Feb 3rd 2024 at 6:18:49 PM

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