What defines a Dragon?

That seems more broadly relevant to a story structure than physical intimidation anyway.

That older wayback machine description of how the dragon is depicted in western beliefs is also based on misconceptions about dragon portrayal and the roles they play in stories. The older the western stories get about dragons, the more nuanced and "Asian-esque" the role (and even appearance) of the dragon becomes; the idea that the western dragon is about being stupid and greedy is more of a modern construct. Tolkien didn't subvert anything, he just did his research instead of relying on the stupid, greedy, evil thing that people now believe they've always been.

So, I'm not entirely sure linking this to some kind of western literary "dragon" depiction is genuine or just based on bad research. On this site, I've mostly seen it being used the way Living Drawing mentioned (second in rank and threat-level to the Big Bad). However, I've always felt the defining line between The Dragon and The Heavy has been a bit fuzzy and arbirtrary (especially where things like penultimate threats to the Big Bad are concerned, which are often The Heavy). The idea of The Dragon being the biggest physical threat to the hero in the story, has interesting possibilities, but would run the risk of being misused as The Brute or an evil-version of The Big Guy if not well-defined in terms of the importance to the story this status needs to have.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 6th 2023 at 7:04:59 PM

Eh, I think a lot of "modern" Western Dragon ideas is influenced by Christian myths and the like, which did see a lot of them as demons to be slayed. So it's not about a lack of "research", just that the myths people being raised on had a lot more to do with religious stories and changes. People talking about western dragons aren't going to immediately think to go back to before medieval Christian Europe. This is super off topic either way, though — there's no reason to get into a debate over what a "true" Western dragon is like.

Since that idea apparently doesn't appear in Campbell's work, where did the concept of the dragon as the stronger, penultimate enemy of the hero before the weaker main antagonist come from in the original description? Most European tales involving dragons and similar creatures don't feature another antagonist afterwards; the dragon is either the sole challenge of that part of the story or the final one (e.g. in The Saga of the Volsungs and Beowulf).

The closest example I can think of is the relationship between Cetho and Polydectes in the Greek myth of Perseus. While Cetho is a powerful monster threatening Andromeda, Polydectes is the catalyst of the story's conflict and is easily defeated thanks to the head of Medusa not much after Perseus killed Cetho. However, this is just one narrative and not a trend. Plus, Polydectes doesn't control Cetho, and the monster isn't considered to be a dragon very often.

Edited by good-morning on May 6th 2023 at 8:47:06 AM

My guess is that most tropers are more familiar with the modern Fantasy and RPG cliche where the Big Bad is usually some sort of Sauron style Evil Overlord that has some Smaug style Dragon or similar styled monster at his beck and call. Which overlaps heavily with the similar dynamic of the endless clones of Palpatine and Vader in countless modern games and fiction. Hence we get The Dragon as the mental image of the two fused into one trope concept.

Edited by crystalevo on May 6th 2023 at 2:43:23 AM

I imagine because in action-focused media (which I feel this site tends to be more popular with), the protagonists classically fight their way up the evil hierarchy. So if there aren't any subversions, they end up fighting the assorted lieutenants first, then they fight The Dragon as the penultimate threat, and then the Big Bad as the Final Boss.

There are many media where it doesn't necessarily work that way (hence the various The Dragon subtropes), but I feel that's the "classic" expectation.

Yeah, since apparently the "Campbellian Dragon" is something else entirely, it's possible that people just conflated it with the idea of fighting the henchman before you get to the big boss.

That makes sense. If that's the case, would it be a case of Trope-Namer Syndrome? Though as far as I know there isn't misuse confusing the trope with actual dragons, so it might be frivolous.

There is also limitations to what TV Tropes is able to convert into an actual trope compared to a broader literary analysis and the writing process. Tropes sometimes imply creating a story is merely plug and play, but that's how it gets sidetracked with examples that try to explain things in less than two sentences.

That was actually my point.

The reality is the opposite of what the original description of The Dragon was claiming, which means the original description's basis for the trope's name, justification and flavour is flawed, badly researched and therefore irrelevant to how we should really be defining the trope. Good-morning points out the rest of the problem, that the trope description isn't even portraying the role of the dragon as a penultimate villain correctly as much of the folklore had the dragon as the antagonist to defeat.

The original premise of The Dragon is flawed from start to finish, and trying to pin down what to salvage keeps throwing up already existing tropes (such as Pre-Final Boss or The Heavy). I'm therefore not sure what The Dragon wants to be that doesn't already exist — unless it's what crystalevo is suggesting and it's really trying to be some kind of RPG-influenced "major villain has a great monster/being under their control that functions as the hero's greatest physical threat that must be defeated prior to facing the final villain" trope.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 7th 2023 at 7:14:41 PM

Again, it's not "poorly researched and flawed" if it's just basing the idea off of the more common western dragon archetype people are most likely to be familiar with. I don't see why it matters that people think of scary princess-eaters and not wise nature spirits and the like, especially in the context of just trying to define a trope. Like, it's not a "misconception", it's just a different type of dragon. And I don't see why that matters so much to you.

I'm not saying there are no flaws to the premise, but whether or not it portrays dragons "incorrectly" isn't that big of a deal — regardless of what the original idea was based on, a flawed idea of dragons doesn't change whether or not the original trope as a trope was flawed.

It doesn't matter to me beyond trying to capture what it wants to be at heart. I only intended to make one post on the subject, but your response was picking up something I wasn't trying to say while concluding the very thing I was saying, which I tried to clarify and then moved on. So, the fact you think I haven't moved on probably means I'm just not conveying what I want to say very well. So, I'm going to move on from that, especially since I've already said that I think crystalevo might be getting to the heart of it; how about I just give what I want to say in pure trope?

What I'm wondering is whether this is a trope in aggregate: it requires certain things that are already covered by existing tropes, but it's the pattern together that creates The Dragon: for example Pre-Final Boss + The Heavy + relationship to the Big Bad or Evil Overlord + some kind of physical powerhouse threat level trope = The Dragon

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 7th 2023 at 7:35:52 PM

It was more the language you used and not the fact that you responded, which made it sound like you cared deeply about what sort of dragon the description was referring to. If that's not what you were trying to say I apologize, but claiming things like "bad research" in that context implied it to me.

IDRK what this trope is actually trying or meant to be anymore. IDK if it's really RPG-based since the Star Wars example was Darth Vader, back at a time when the archetypes used by Star Wars really seemed to mean a lot to the wiki for some reason.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 7th 2023 at 2:36:12 PM

Does The Dragon have to be The Heavy? The more prominent example uses are being the second-in-command of the evil organization but not necessarily driving the plot.

Well, it's not The Dragon who should drive the plot; it's the Big Bad. (Unless that's what you were getting at by referencing the "organization")

No, you don't need to apologise; it's entirely my wording that's caused the confusion, and I apologise for that.

I find the trope very confusing, which is why I'm looking at it from an aggregate perspective. I don't know if that's the right way to go either, but I don't think it's been suggested yet, and people seem to be suggesting patterns rather than individual tropes, so I thought it was worth a shot.

It may or may not be. I just threw out some tropes as an example of what I was talking about. At the moment, we can't even agree on whether it's a Pre-Final Boss either. The Heavy tends to be the villain that is most exposed to the heroes in terms of the threats they keep dealing with on their way to eventually confronting the Big Bad. The Heavy isn't really the plot driver, the Big Bad is, so they're the plot driver's main tool for dealing with the heroes until the story is ready for the heroes to deal directly with the Big Bad.

Oh, unless you're saying The Dragon should be the plot driver? I have to admit that I don't see that in the trope... but that doesn't mean anything at this point.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 7th 2023 at 7:47:13 PM

It's evident that The Dragon isn't following Campbell's idea and neither it does the original description, but I'm confused what conclusion we're trying to reach, that The Dragon currently has an ambiguous description or isn't tropeworthy or has an odd name?

Edited by Amonimus on May 7th 2023 at 9:54:24 PM

We're just trying to understand what this trope should be, I think, given that at various points it had different definitions and this originally started with me asking if it was worth trying to re-do the failed TRS effort (which didn't go anywhere due to Eddie making a mess of things and the conversation starting in 2016, which was a much different time).

Shouldn't it just be left as "The Big Bad's Number Two."?

Eh, if it has to be, but then I don't see why we can't just use Number Two for that. Tropes being divided on the basis of morality doesn't end well.

So, Number Two itself says:

"If the Number Two is also the final obstacle before reaching the Big Bad, then they're The Dragon."

Which is once again referencing the idea that The Dragon has to be fought first. That it's not just enough for The Dragon to be the second in command; they still must be a penultimate threat. And it seems that for a while the definition was the blend of "Big Bad's second, who the hero faces first" (again, possibly due to Vader's influence). The "penultimate threat" stuff may not have basis in literary analysis but at least it's a unique trope in combination (that the penultimate threat is the villain ranked second to the Big Bad, which conveys the idea of working one's way to the top) and not just "Evil Number Two, even though in plenty of scenarios there's no such formal power structure which seems required by Number Two"

(Also I feel like this is misusing Big Bad to mean "main villain" and not "creator of the conflict" but more on that here)

Edited by WarJay77 on May 7th 2023 at 3:10:00 PM

I'll note that part was added in 2016 by a user who left no edit reason, originally it said "If the Number Two is also the Big Bad's main fighter, then he's The Dragon."

That version is even worse, since I'm pretty sure that's a much different trope. At least the updated version matches the original definition lol. There's no definition that claims The Dragon is the "main" fighter; the closest is the idea of them being the brawn to the villain's brains, but even that only fits a few specific examples.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 7th 2023 at 3:29:15 PM

Oh I wasn't implying it was better, just wanted to point it out. Seems that people have been having headaches trying to pin down The Dragon for years now.

Oh yeah, no I just think it's hilarious that the original line that was there made no sense at all with any of our definitions lol. I assume whoever changed it was just trying to make it actually correct

That definition is redundant to Sorting Algorithm of Evil though (where the heroes defeat villains by ascending order of menace, so obviously the second strongest villain after the Big Bad is going to be faced second-to-last).

On a side note, Pre-Final Boss is when the penultimate battle and the final battle have to be fought back-to-back immediately, which is not required by either definition of The Dragon.