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Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#2451: Sep 28th 2024 at 2:09:46 PM

Energy overflow isn't especially useful at the moment, but full team action advancement is amazing. Might be a viable alternative to Robin for aoe follow-up teams. Presumably there's some energy generation gimmick that isn't getting reported as well

Also, all of this could be nonsense

they introduced Ruan Mei with her break effect buffs long before Break became a real gimmick. 

???? Ruan Mei was the best character in the game on release

If he has to be playable make em useless cause Mihoyo’s pattern with playable bad guys means they are going to whitewash the hell out of him.

He was trying to create paradise, sacrificing no one but himself. It's not hard to make Sunday look like a good guy

MB74 Since: Feb, 2024 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#2452: Sep 28th 2024 at 3:04:00 PM

Also, correct me if I’m wrong but when have they ever made playable bad guys useless? (The closest we have to playable villains is the Stellaron hunters and they’re all extremely powerful units)

I’ll lift my face, and run to the sunlight.
Kiefen MINE! from Germany Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
MINE!
#2453: Sep 28th 2024 at 5:00:56 PM

[up][up] What I meant was that Ruan Mei was always the dedicated Break Support that just happened to also have enough generic buffs that she worked as an amazing all-rounder.

Back when she released on beta the initial reaction to her kit was " she buffs Break Effect and Efficiency, and extends break duration, she is probably going to be the dedicated break support." Then after a few adjustments her DMG and Res Penetration buffs were so strong that people realized that she was BIS for almost any team and the community's perception of her swapped to "All-round Support".

Ironically when Boothill and Firefly finally released a lot of people wrote that they would skip on RM because they would rather wait for a "real break support", like RM was a generic support that just happened to work good with break, when it was actually the other way around.(admittedly this is a loud minority, ownership rate for RM is in the mid 90's so barely anyone skipped her.)

So yeah I could see this happen with Sunday again, he ends up with some good evergreen buffs but his distinct gimmick ends being utilized by a yet non-existing archetype. The solution predates the problem, so to speak.

Edited by Kiefen on Sep 28th 2024 at 5:16:09 PM

DanteVin The Time Has Come from Somewhere Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Singularity
#2454: Sep 28th 2024 at 6:41:21 PM

people realized that she was BIS for almost any team and the community's perception of her swapped to "All-round Support".

Reminds me of the long time when I also put Ruan Mei in all of my team comps, so much that my Asta, Tingyun and Bronya remain benched.

a lot of people wrote that they would skip on RM because they would rather wait for a "real break support".

I recently had a similar predicament, but it's about Jiaoqiu. Skipped him for Feixiao under the assumption that there may be another "real" Nihility support on the way. I hope I don't regret it even under the copium that I had easier time farming for Feixiao's Relics than Acheron's. grin

The solution predates the problem, so to speak.

Not just characters themselves, this is already obvious with Relics. Whatever relic sets miHoYo cooks up still tend to become highly relevant later on, so there may be a problem of which character should really wear these if you pre-farm them. For example, Valorous and Duran are still considered the BiS for Feixiao, but they predate her... Well, unless you're a character named Jing Yuan who somehow can work with several of the newer relic sets released after him.

As much as I hate how effective the "Create a Problem then sell the Solution" card is to miHoYo's money-making strategies, or as a FOMO (Fear of Missing Out) tactic that gacha game devs do, it seems like this idea of believing that a unit will work best "later on to solve a specific problem" will really not go away anytime soon. I mean, aside from Ruan Mei and Break, people also retroactively changed perception on Herta after Pure Fiction was released. So yeah, I also won't be surprised if Sunday's supposed mechanics are really meant to tease a new "archetype" involving characters that will be meta-defining later on. Perhaps Sunday will still induce FOMO, but for the future team comps that may "require" him. miHoYo is primarily a live-service/gacha game developer anyway, the kinds who know how to take advantage of FOMO.

And this is coming from someone who long got used to miHoYo creating the problem and selling the solution immediately alongside it. I think I've also mentioned this already somewhere, but Honkai Impact 3rd also gives this kind of FOMO feeling that if you haven't pulled for whoever is the currently-released Valkyrie at that time, you'll be having a hard time at the endgame contents (such as Memorial Arena) or simply catching up with the meta that may persist later on.

Edited by DanteVin on Sep 28th 2024 at 10:09:32 PM

With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#2455: Sep 28th 2024 at 8:34:15 PM

I recently had a similar predicament, but it's about Jiaoqiu. Skipped him for Feixiao under the assumption that there may be another "real" Nihility support on the way. I hope I don't regret it even under the copium that I had easier time farming for Feixiao's Relics than Acheron's. grin

I mean, reruns are a thing

But, more broadly, I don't expect better support for Acheron, but I could definitely see a dedicated DoT support at some point

Billy5545 An eagle from The sky Since: Nov, 2017
An eagle
#2456: Sep 28th 2024 at 9:41:48 PM

What if someone is reluctant to pull for the rerun because a new character (especially one with a similar role) or meta shift + stat inflation cause them to become powercreeped in the meta?

Just an eagle. Feel free to PM me. Proposed pages in my sandbox are free to create/edit.
Bexlerfu Khatun of the Azim Steppe from Mol Iloh Since: Nov, 2020
Khatun of the Azim Steppe
#2457: Oct 1st 2024 at 9:25:48 AM

Then after a few adjustments her DMG and Res Penetration buffs were so strong that people realized that she was BIS for almost any team and the community's perception of her swapped to "All-round Support".

If the beta testers didn't see that from the get-go, they must have been quite dumb.

Break efficiency & Break duration alone, without the damage buffs, has basically allowed people to clear content without a support since day one of her release due to enemies not even getting a turn before being turned to goo. There's no other support that can basically free a slot on your team for either another DPS or another support due to how little damage you take (and she's SP-positive too, so zero adjustments to make).

Everybody saw that from the very beginning. Her also being BIS for Firefly & Boothill was just icing on cake.

But, more broadly, I don't expect better support for Acheron, but I could definitely see a dedicated Do T support at some point

Yeah, there is zero need for "supports for Acheron". Any character that debuffs enemies passively becomes a "support for Acheron".

The problem with DOT support if you ignore reddit memes for a second (which you should) is that it's still a very strong team even without new tools for almost a year (maybe Jiaoqiu? Don't use him, don't know if his debuffs are DOT). And Kafka & Black Swan are both built with multiplier effects in their kits, so if you add another similar character, you might create an insane damage powercreep.

I think it's more likely we see a DOT sustain than a DOT support, because there already are a couple of supports that work super fine with K&BS (like Ruan Mei).

Edited by Bexlerfu on Oct 1st 2024 at 6:37:14 PM

Billy5545 An eagle from The sky Since: Nov, 2017
An eagle
#2458: Oct 1st 2024 at 4:06:31 PM

How bad is the misinformation specifically in the HSR subreddit and how bad are the non-gameplay memes in the same subreddit?

Also what kind of meta team since the game's release until RM's patch runs break to do a lot of its damage?

Just an eagle. Feel free to PM me. Proposed pages in my sandbox are free to create/edit.
Nouct over the front from an east coast Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
over the front
#2459: Oct 1st 2024 at 5:10:33 PM

[up][up] Jiaoqiu's debuff does both DoT (considered an alternate version of Burn) and damage vulnerability on enemies.

Ner0014reN Since: Aug, 2023
#2460: Oct 2nd 2024 at 1:04:26 AM

Hoyo's whole Poison and Cure Gambit is why leaks are downright crucial (and why HI 3's beta is open unlike the others)

Chariot King of Anime Since: Jul, 2014
King of Anime
#2461: Oct 2nd 2024 at 9:46:43 PM

Lost my 50/50 to Gepard of all people and while I have more than enough pulls to guarantee her I plan to wait for Rappa since now she's guaranteed.

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#2462: Oct 3rd 2024 at 11:43:39 AM

Won the 50/50 and got Lingsha, now I have to get her light cone so that she doesn’t leave Gallagher toothless.

Edited by raziel365 on Oct 3rd 2024 at 11:45:40 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
SoaringEagle A figment of your imagination from A dream you had (Troper Youngling) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
A figment of your imagination
#2463: Oct 3rd 2024 at 2:29:37 PM

uh oh. bellas, i think the character kit descriptions are falling back to “the old ways”. not as in Walkthrough Mode, but rather, inserting the character’s job into their kit descriptions instead of just talking about the kit. also, it seems not every trope entry that talks about ability number values has been cleaned up yet. should we start editing again?

for instance, this is lingsha’s kit description as of writing: “Lingsha's expertise in incense sees her fight alongside the incense beast "Fuyuan", summoned and advanced by her multi-hit and heal Skill, who will strike all enemies upon taking action, while healing all allies and cleansing any debuffs they're suffering from. Her knowledge of scents also allows her to inflict enemies with "Befog", increasing the Break damage they take, either with her Technique, which will inflict it at the start of battle, or Ultimate, which will damage all enemies and make "Fuyuan" act immediately.“

hit me up on MSN messenger! ;D
AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#2464: Oct 3rd 2024 at 2:45:46 PM

Waxing poetic on the first sentence of a character's gameplay description always had me rolling eyes. Also, didn't we agree on 3 sentences max?

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Kiefen MINE! from Germany Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
MINE!
#2465: Oct 3rd 2024 at 3:15:08 PM

[up]Same.

Personally I wouldn't need more than a character's role and archetype.

"Lingsha is a Break Effect scaling Fire Abundance character, who specializes in dealing Ao E damage through follow-up attack pets."

Edited by Kiefen on Oct 3rd 2024 at 5:32:33 PM

Bexlerfu Khatun of the Azim Steppe from Mol Iloh Since: Nov, 2020
Khatun of the Azim Steppe
#2466: Oct 3rd 2024 at 3:59:04 PM

Clearly too long and the names have no place in a character summary (I would argue that they barely belong to the character page itself unless there is an actual trope in the way they are named).

I picked one page at random (the Stellaron Hunters), and for me...

  • Blade is too long, no need to be that accurate with his HP mechanics in his description, it could be shortened
  • Kafka is maybe a bit too short, as "detonating DOT" can mean a variety of things - I wouldn't mind if her detonation system was detailed a bit
  • Firefly and Silver Wolf should be used as staples regarding a character's kit summary IMO. They go over the entire kit (or most of it) in short, accurate sentences, and omit parts that are not strictly necessary to understand what's the character's deal (like Firefly's advance turn on Ult).

Current Blade:

Blade plays fast and loose with his HP in order to dish out big damage on enemies. His Skill consumes HP to enhance his basic attack, which will also consume HP to deal damage to up to 3 enemies at once. After losing HP enough times (including from taking damage), he can perform a powerful follow-up attack on all enemies that also heals him. His Ultimate can either consume his HP or heal him depending on his current HP, which deals damage partly based on the amount of HP he's lost prior to using it.

Replacement proposal (feel free to correct the grammar)

Blade is a damage dealer who sacrifices his HP to deal damage to enemies. He will launch a follow-up attack on all enemies and heal himself when he's lost HP enough times, while his Ultimate will leave him with exactly 50% of his HP after hitting enemies - healing or injuring him in the process.

Billy5545 An eagle from The sky Since: Nov, 2017
An eagle
#2467: Oct 3rd 2024 at 4:07:57 PM

Are you all just mad at detailed and "creative" only in TVT because this site is for tropes, not gameplay, or do you all believe people being that "dedicated" about gameplay is annoying no matter which site it is put in, with the reason being that gameplay should always be technical and concise instead of being fluffed with pretentious words straight from the thesaurus?

Just an eagle. Feel free to PM me. Proposed pages in my sandbox are free to create/edit.
Bexlerfu Khatun of the Azim Steppe from Mol Iloh Since: Nov, 2020
Khatun of the Azim Steppe
#2468: Oct 3rd 2024 at 4:27:30 PM

Some things belong on sites with strictly encyclopedic aims. I don't think people come to TVT to either get accurate small pieces of lore (especially considering how strange HSR's lore is), or to find ideas on how to build their characters.

I just don't think the name of Skill/Abilities/Ultimates/Talents or Eidolons bring any informative value in the context of TVT. Or, more accurately, just throwing them automatically does not. If for example you add that Guinaifen's Eidolons are all named after performer tricks - then it belongs in this entry. If Lingha's actions were in a trope folder that explains that they're all fog-related (incense, smoke, mist...), then fine.

If you don't know anything about HSR and are reading character entries to know what it's about, it can make it very confusing...and if you know anything about HSR then you're aware that actions and eidolons have extremely strange naming conventions and that you don't need to know about them to have a glimpse of how a character functions.

Edited by Bexlerfu on Oct 3rd 2024 at 1:29:04 PM

Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#2469: Oct 3rd 2024 at 4:53:13 PM

As long as we still have some gameplay stuff... There's plenty of character sheets on this site for videogames that don't feel the need to include anything about how these people function in the actual game

AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#2470: Oct 4th 2024 at 2:41:57 PM

[up][up][up] Well, the passion guy who's at the core of the problems involving HSR and Genshin Impact gameplay troping seemingly Rage Quit the site after getting slapped in ATT for trying to revive the issue immediately after it attained consensus in another query except for him. Maybe he did good on his promise to stick to KeqingMains (or whatever hardcore metasweat site it was).

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Billy5545 An eagle from The sky Since: Nov, 2017
An eagle
#2471: Oct 4th 2024 at 6:23:00 PM

Dang, you almost made me laugh

Also what's wrong with metasweats in general, even if they're kept out from "ruining" TVT?

Just an eagle. Feel free to PM me. Proposed pages in my sandbox are free to create/edit.
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#2472: Oct 5th 2024 at 2:25:44 PM

Let's just say that those sites can devolve into "Stop Having Fun" Guys and Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy mentality pretty fast and erode any enjoyment one can have of a character outside of their placement in the metagame.

Like, for instance, Yanqing as a character has got one of the best comebacks within the story between his interactions with Yunli and March 7th as well as his showing against Hoolay, to the point I would consider him the potential protagonist of any future Xianzhou content (sorry Dan Heng, you deserve better).

As a unit though, he's still not good until new notice, and those meta sites would bash Yanqing solely because of that regardless of the contribuitions he could make to the narrative of HSR. Hence why they are not seen in good regard.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#2473: Oct 5th 2024 at 2:57:07 PM

[up][up] Have you even seen GameBreaker.Honkai Star Rail? It's dictated by tropers swearing by Prydwen's tier list and removing Game Breakers who supposedly got powercrept accordingly. Argenti (one of the best units for Pure Fiction and spamming powerful Ultimates in general) and Bronya (100% advance on Skill is often more valuable than Sparkle's 50%) getting removed from the page because Prydwen said so is pure BS imo; pretty sure those tropers would even remove Qinque and Herta if not for pushback in their favour. Oh, and trying to add an ever-changing Prydwen tier list as the page image was the height of foolishness.

Edited by AnoBakaDesu on Oct 5th 2024 at 6:37:21 AM

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#2474: Oct 5th 2024 at 6:35:33 PM

...I'd argue that the gamebreakers page should be much, much smaller, not larger. Like, I'm not sure I'd be willing to list any characters other than Ruan Mei and Robin

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#2475: Oct 5th 2024 at 6:44:31 PM

With Star Rail's constant power creep nothing is a Game Breaker, its all going to be depreciated in half a year.


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