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Misused: The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask

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To-do list:

  • Move examples that fit the revised definition ("rulers have to take on a more ruthless appearance to be taken seriously because their subjects don't think much of weak and ineffectual leaders") and remove ones that don't.
    • Clean on-page examples.
    • Clean wicks.

    Original post 
Note: This thread was proposed by Adept.

Problem: The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask is defined as an Always Female trope in which a woman in leadership position is forced to "unwoman" herself in order to be seen as competent and worthy of her role, because of the public perception that women (and other feminine qualities) inherently make bad leaders. A lot of examples ignore the gendered aspect and makes it a more general "being a ruler is hard because one has to sacrifice their individuality and repress their emotions for the sake of the greater good". I once asked the Trope Description Improvement Drive if we can expand the description to not be so gender focused, but was told that the gendered aspect is essential to the trope, and changing the description to downplay that requirement should be done in TRS.
Based on the wick check, only 3.7% really touches on the character's gender. The majority of the examples are either ZCE (38.9%), or simply variations of "character in high positions are not allowed to publicly emote and this takes a toll on them" (37%). Other examples simply mention that the ruler face difficulties unrelated to public opinion, or face discrimination/opposition due to other factors besides gender (e.g. age, physical appearance, an "inappropriate" personality, etc.).\

Proposed Solution: Remove the gendered aspect and expand the trope to fit the misuse: a person in a position of authority is forced to wear a "public persona" that forces them to act or behave in a manner against their own feelings/interests to fit their subjects' wishes (or what they thought the subjects would want from a leader). Probably rename as well.

Wick check:

Wick Check for The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask.

Wicks Checked: 54/54

I: 2/54 (3.7%)
II: 20/54 (37%)
III: 21/54 (38.9%)
IV: 7/54 (13%)
V: 4/54 (7.4%)


    open/close all folders 
    I: Correct 
  1. Literature.Song At Dawn: Alienor is beloved in her home county of Aquitaine but despised in the capital, Paris. There she is called "the southern whore". The queenly mask is her only weapon against such gossip. Character wears queenly mask so she won't be seen as a whore. Pass, though more context would be preferable.
  2. TearJerker.Fate Zero: While this is only in backstory and materials, Lancelot's sad fate also shows how horrible Guinevere's life turned out. Let's see: She was just a normal girl, but due to Saber having to be the perfect King, she needed a 'wife' and Guinevere, in this verse actually just one of Artoria's good friend, had to play along with the role of The High Queen out of necessity, not love, discarding any notions that she could be ever any "woman" or "human." Only Lancelot seemed to understand her plight, and yet this tore at Guinevere because loving Lancelot back was also a betrayal to her commitment with Artoria. This continued to torture her that she cried every single day, and just like Lancelot, Artoria couldn't blame her, recognizing her greater burden. Others were not so understanding: Once their affair was found out (by Agravain), Guinevere was locked up and set for execution, setting Lancelot to the path of betrayal just to protect her. While Guinevere was saved, her reputation was forever destroyed, everyone preferred to call her insulting names like "unchaste wife" and "traitorous queen," and it went on so long that she couldn't stop crying and her beautiful face became more and more ragged in each day. Even Lancelot felt absolutely guilty that the result of their love was just making her cry forever. Mentions gendered aspect, as shown in the quote, "Guinevere... had to play along with the role of The High Queen out of necessity, not love, discarding any notions that she could be ever any 'woman' or 'human'."

    II: No gender-based discrimination 
  1. Characters.A Song Of Ice And Fire Jon Snow: Male example naturally. Once he becomes Lord Commander, he feels it's necessary to adopt a reserved personality and put the good of the Watch first. This doesn't go over well with all of his friends there, some of whom think it's a case of Acquired Situational Narcissism. For Jon, he adopts this trope to follow his father's lessons in leadership to him and in his efforts to more effectively fulfill his duty. General assumption that "being a leader means showing no emotions or personal desires".
  2. Characters.Frozen Elsa: Tries to be this, but cannot keep it up; when Anna confronts her at her coronation afterparty, she loses her composure. It's abandoned completely by the end, as she entertains her subjects with a skating rink in summer, skating amongst them as well. No mention of gender roles or expectation.
  3. Characters.Horizon In The Middle Of Nowhere: Her haughty and aloof exterior is mainly an attitude she has to assume due to her role as Queen Elizabeth I. She has to disregard any personal feelings for the sake of the History Recreation, including her love for her twin sister who is meant to be executed. No mention of gender roles or expectation.
  4. Characters.Once Upon A Time Wonderland: A dark, villainous example. She actively cultivates her Queenly Mask, from her flawless appearance to her emotionless facade and her iron rule over her people. On the other hand, she fails to be an effective ruler regardless of trying to live up to it in appearance and action. No mention of gender roles or expectation.
  5. Characters.She Ra And The Princesses Of Power Hordak: More like, "The Man Wearing the Kingly Mask". Hordak rules the Horde with a ruthless, coldly efficient hand, but he doesn't seem to derive any joy from his warlord role, preferring to work on science projects in his sanctum. He's trying to conquer Etheria so that Horde Prime will affirm him, not because he finds conquest and tyranny satisfying. Imp and Entrapta are the few people around whom he can be himself instead of playing the role of Lord Hordak the tyrant. General assumption that "a leader wears a mask and doesn't like their job".
  6. Characters.System Restore: She slips into this role during the second trial, around the time it becomes apparent she and Tanaka are the last viable suspects. Character puts on a mask to avoid suspicion in a crime rather than to deflect any criticism against her leadership.
  7. Characters.The Familiar Of Zero: The position of Queen demands a confident, competent, and most of all spotless image, and so Henrietta has to maintain this image for the public. She takes solace in her friendship with Louise, when no one can see her. No mention of gender roles or expectation.
  8. Characters.The Inkworld Trilogy: Princess Violante: Forces herself to appear emotionless in order to not be seen as fragile. Seems that emotions are seen as a weakness, but doesn't show that it's considered a particularly feminine weakness that she must hide.
  9. Characters.The Last Kingdom Mercia: In Season 4. She loves Uhtred, but a requirement of her ascendancy to the throne of Mercia is that she take an oath of celibacy and thus forsake her own desires for the good of her kingdom. Within an episode of taking the throne, she has adjusted to her role enough that she responds to the news that Uhtred is likely dead with only a brief show of pain before accepting that there are greater matters to deal with. Character has to sacrifice personal desire for the good of the nation. No mention of gender roles or expectation.
  10. Characters.The Villainess Lives Again: Justified. Her mother raised her to be this. Artezia rarely shows her real emotions in front of her subordinates and enemies. Cedric, Lisia, Alice and other selected people close to her are some of the few people who see her real face. No mention of gender roles or expectation.
  11. Fanfic.The Golden Power: Zig-zagged. Zelda rules Hyrule during a period of political turmoil when the economy is in dire straits, the military is nearly non-existent, neighboring kingdoms are preparing to invade and ambitious nobles are vying for her favor at best and her hand in marriage at worst. Despite all of this and her disdain for politics, Zelda thrives under the workload of reestablishing Hyrule as a nation – or at least appears to. Her workaholic schedule is a means of distracting herself from the changes the Triforce of Wisdom is causing in her. The leader appears to be hard working to cope with external turmoil.
  12. Literature.A Brothers Price: Ren has a hard time adjusting to being the eldest, and thus the head of her sisters, which is justified because she hadn't been born nor raised to that role. Simply "being a leader sucks".
  13. Main.Tin Man: The Night Unfurls: Olga is often said to have a stoic/expressionless facade, but she is more proud and passionate than she thinks she is, especially regarding the well being of her kind, the dark elves. Celestine, once a close friend of hers, noted that Olga "had always been a passionate creature" in the remastered version. Given that she has to put on a brave face as queen of the dark elves, this is understandable.
  14. Manga.Its My Life Imomushi Narita: Elise inherited the position of Tribal Chief at an early age after her mother died; being new to the role, and trying to live up to her mother's reputation, she dedicated all her efforts to it at the cost of having any sort of personal life, and as a result, she's awkward to the point of tsundere when dealing with others on an interpersonal level. After she meets Astra and company, she wants to be free to pursue her own desires, but is bound by the responsibilities of her position. Her problems is caused by her age, and later her desire to connect more with the outside world, rather than her gender. Given that her society seems to be a matriarchy anyway, her gender would not be an issue.
  15. SuperpoweredEvilSide.Video Games: Queen Arshtat Falenas in Suikoden V took the Sun Rune into her to prevent it from falling into the "wrong hands." Ever since, she melodramatically rants and cackles authoritatively whenever her "divine rule" is threatened. Once, she even unleashed the Sun Rune, completely dessicating a lake and its nearby landscape and leaving her nearby subjects to die a wasting death. All in all, a Super-Powered Evil Side is a great way to balance The High Queen and her darker counterpart, leading to a natural aloof regality. The country she rules is a Queendom, so whatever mask she needs to put on to deflect opposition would not have been gender-based.
  16. VideoGame.Fox Spirit A Two Tailed Adventure: Hisako is a no-nonsense chief who takes her job as head of her army seriously. She also ties her hair in a martial topknot so it won't get in the way in battle. Deep down, she seeks peace in the village like her people do, but she hides that because she has to stay strong for the upcoming war. Leader hides what she truly feels to stay strong. Nothing about gender.
  17. YMMV.A New Hope: Princess Leia doesn't seem as bothered by the destruction of her home planet as you'd expect, or her Cold-Blooded Torture at the hands of Darth Vader. This gets explored in the 2015 Marvel Star Wars comics, in particular Star Wars: Princess Leia: Leia feels personally responsible for the destruction of her homeworld and her parents' deaths, but can't show it, especially with no surviving family or close friends to confide in (she just barely met Luke and Han). Meanwhile, the Rebel rank and file think she's a cold-blooded Ice Queen, while the leadership won't allow her out of their sight to put herself in any more danger. AFAIK, none of her subordinates ever object to her being in a leadership position due to her gender.
  18. Characters.Princess Evangile: While Ayaka has rejected any sort of responsibility apart from what roles she chooses to take of her own free will, Ritsuko always has to act as people expect her to, which is becoming increasingly burdensome for her. Simply alludes to the difficulty of a leader having to cave in to the subjects' expectations, which has nothing to do with gender.
  19. Characters.Dance In The Vampire Bund: Mina is the sort of person whose first instinct even in the middle of a un-life-or-final-death fight is to protect a human child. Between that and the fact that she looks 12, it is hard to imagine how she can hope to maintain herself as Queen of the Vampires without the whole Stone Bitch pose and a good bit of doing what goes against her better nature. The challenges to her authority seems to come from her childlike appearance and her compassion rather than her gender.
  20. ButNowIMustGo.Video Games: Princess Nyna does this in Fire Emblem: Mystery of the Emblem. After all the Break the Cutie that she went through for her heritage/position and the terrible mistake she committed for the sake of the continent, she decides to leave Archanea in the hands of Marth and Caeda and leave. No mention of gender-based discrimination, just that her position had brought her a lot of hardships.

    III: ZCE or otherwise incomplete context 
  1. Awesome.The Weedverse: When Mr. Mariner enacts an Xanatos Gambit that basically threatens all of Equestrian society to remove the Royal Sisters from power, Gosling manages to convince a mob of nobles who happened to be Celestia's former students. How? By speaking to them honestly about how Celestia thought of abdicating because her subjects no longer loved her or needed her around. Realizing the extent of their Princess's despair, the nobles rally behind Gosling and become his army. No mention of gendered aspect and mask-wearing.
  2. BewareTheNiceOnes.Comic Books: Reginella, queen of the planet Pacificus is a sweet and demure woman, if a bit sad due the duties of ruling over her planet. Whenever her planet is in danger and the usual means don't work, her first reaction is to summon Donald and have him go on a rampage on the threat, or otherwise use his help to annihilate it, and escalates from that, with her final weapon being nightmare-levels of Mind Rape (we don't know if Vampirione ever woke up from the coma)-and the latter would actually be her first solution if it didn't threaten her own life due the strain. Simply "being a leader sucks". No mention of gendered aspect and mask-wearing.
  3. Characters.Baten Kaitos: Zigzagged. She spends most of the game as the woman behind the mask but ultimately fulfills her duty as the mask. Not enough context.
  4. Characters.Child Of Light: *blank*
  5. ComicBook.Princess Ugg: The Queen, with shades of The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask. She is wise, gracious, and poised. How does she have shades of this trope?
  6. Creator.Edmond Hamilton: Empress Tharanya of Sun Smasher. ZCE
  7. Fanfic.Cadance Of Cloudsdale: A less-dramatic variant. Cadance realizes how horrible fate has treated the Crystal Ponies, and combined with their adoration of her, she worries she can't be the Princess they deserve. No mention of gendered aspect and mask-wearing.
  8. Heartwarming.Fire Emblem Three Houses Shortly after siding with Edelgard after the split at the Holy Tomb, one can view her B support if they raised the level high enough prior. There, Edelgard expresses her feelings about how happy she is that Byleth is walking alongside her. She even claims her heart would have turned to ice and she would have become cold and uncaring without them there for her. Knowing how the other routes turn out, one can't help but smile knowing that she will no longer be alone or lose sight of what's right. No mention of both gendered aspect and mask-wearing.
  9. Literature.Mara Daughter Of The Nile: Hatshepsut has shades of this, although she's portrayed as an antagonist. ZCE
  10. Manga.Hellsing: Integra shows this, even though she isn't the ruler of a country. ZCE
  11. PlayingWith.Never A Self Made Woman: Exploited: "Don't worry Chancellor Bob. Every haughty Feudal Overlord in the Kingdom will think my girl Alice just got the throne because I have no sons. She'll eat them all alive while they are underestimating her." Alludes to the female ruler being underestimated due to her gender, although no mention of her wearing a "mask".
  12. Recap.Game Of Thrones S 1 E 10 Fire And Blood: Cat after she gets the news of Ned's death, though it only lasts until she gets out of sight of the Northern soldiers, then she breaks down in anguish. No mention of leadership role and gendered aspect.
  13. VideoGame.Suikoden V: Queen Arshtat is a kind and loving woman, but the needs of the country force her into hard choices and sacrifices. A leader is forced is make hard choices. No mention of gendered aspect and mask-wearing.
  14. WebOriginal.I Went To Another World But Got Sent Back With My Party: Cecily: according to Damian, she's a real Stepford Smiler and slow to show vulnerability. '''No mention of leadership role and gendered aspect.
  15. Characters.The Legend Of Zelda Twilight Princess: In the prologue, she is forced to surrender her kingdom to Zant. ZCE
  16. Main.Lovable Alpha Bitch: Galinda/Glinda from Wicked. Spoiled, ditzy, entitled, and bratty... but also deeply loyal to Elphaba, and in possession of a genuinely good heart beneath it all. By the time act two begins, she's outgrown her Alpha Bitch ways almost entirely, and the end of the show has her ascend to The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask for the sake of the greater good. No mention of her being discriminated or face any challenges in her leadership role, due to gender or otherwise.
  17. Villain with Good Publicity: An even better example is the Red Queen from its spin-off series Once Upon a Time in Wonderland, who is generally liked by the population (though some are terrified of her) and listens to the complaints of her subjects. Her popularity is probably helped by the fact that she was preceded by Cora, and that royalty in the OUAT universe tends not to be great in the first place. Pothole to an entry that actually seems to demonstrate the opposite of the trope, which implies that she's popular among her subjects.
  18. Characters.Inheritance Cycle: Technically not a queen, but it fits her situation nicely. ZCE
  19. Characters.Village Tales The Family: She is on terms of transparent honesty with her lady's-maid, who is a Great Comfort to Her and before whom she can let the not-quite-queenly mask slip. Doesn't show that the character is in a leadership position, or suffers it due to her gender.
  20. BodyguardCrush.Anime And Manga: Alucard is intensely devoted to his Master and Countess Integra Hellsing to the point of any insult done towards her in his presence triggers a Berserk Button. He's referred as her lapdog and bodyguard a couple of times, so fits this role. Pothole to a character's name. No further context.
  21. GroinAttack.Video Games: Mitsuru delivers a rapid series of blows before finishing with a groin kick that knocks the target over. Pothole to a character's name. No further context.

    IV: Irrelevant context 
  1. Characters.Full Metal Panic Main Characters: Teletha Testarossa: She has a bad case of imposter syndrome and is constantly worried that all her soldiers will one day realize (or have already realized) she's ultimately a clutzy teenage girl who's useless in a firefight. Context doesn't mention her putting up any sort of "mask", and her insecurity about her position seems to stem from her lack of fighting ability than her gender.
  2. HeterosexualLifePartners.Video Games: Though Ike's heterosexuality may be debatable. Especially considering that Elincia flirts with him relentlessly, and he ignores her along with every other woman who shows possible interest, and in between games she moves on both handling Crimea as best as she can and, if the player wishes so, possibly reciprocating Geoffrey's Bodyguard Crush on her. Pothole to a completely unrelated entry
  3. Characters.Persona 3 SEES: A significant amount of her aloof attitude is based on her not being that great at socializing, while the rest is based on her attempts to be professional and in control. A character has No Social Skills.
  4. Characters.The Legend Of Zelda Breath Of The Wild Link And Zelda: Zelda's father warns her the nobles believe she's treading this path, because she hasn't manifested the sealing powers that Hylian queens and princesses possess. He's fed up with the intrigue and shadow politics, telling Zelda she must prove them wrong. She eventually does... but not without the entire kingdom falling into ruin beforehand. Not clear what "this path" means. Any contention towards her rule doesn't seem to have anything to do with her gender. Insecurity stems from lack of fantastical powers.
  5. DarthWiki.Heart Of Ice: Irina, as a side-effect of her rigid emotional control, being turned into a living weapon at the age of twelve, and trying to control her ice powers. Context has nothing to do with the character's leadership role. It's basically just saying that the character is The Stoic.
  6. Literature.Tales Of The Five Hundred Kingdoms: Single women in power must beware of loneliness in case the Tradition sends them a Cad, a Rake, or some other betrayer who will take advantage of them. No mention of gender-based discrimination or mask-putting. The context seems to be more of a warning against All Girls Want Bad Boys.
  7. WMG.Lady Gaga: Or alternately, the distortion (similar to melting film) is symbolic for how public opinion of the Empress collapses after her death. Gaga is The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask, or some kind of Fantasy Counterpart Culture Eva Peron, whose sexuality is figuratively (or literally) the only thing keeping her nation together. When she finds pleasure and satisfaction in sex, the kingdom thrives, but as she becomes disillusioned and objectified, the kingdom suffers and dies.

    V: Unclassified 
  1. Main.Ice Queen: Similar to the Iron Lady, a woman in power must carry herself with aloof detachment and remain unmoved whatever the crisis, or no one will respect her authority. Trope in an index. Overlaps with Iron Lady.
  2. Main.The Stoic: The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask Trope in an index.
  3. TheNightUnfurls.Tropes O To Z: Tin Man: Olga is often said to have a stoic/expressionless facade, but she is more proud and passionate than she thinks she is, especially regarding the well being of her kind, the dark elves. Celestine, once a close friend of hers, noted that Olga "had always been a passionate creature" in the remastered version. Given that she has to put on a brave face as queen of the dark elves, this is understandable. Duplicates with Main.Tin Man example.
  4. Main.Standard Royal Court: If there isn't a queen, the process of filling the vacancy is itself a popular plot. She often comes in the varieties dignified and noble and cruel and petty. The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask is usually the supreme ruler herself. Listed as a possible variation for the Queen's role in a Standard Royal Court.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 11th 2023 at 1:48:36 PM

GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
#1: Mar 27th 2023 at 11:40:01 PM

To-do list:

  • Move examples that fit the revised definition ("rulers have to take on a more ruthless appearance to be taken seriously because their subjects don't think much of weak and ineffectual leaders") and remove ones that don't.
    • Clean on-page examples.
    • Clean wicks.

    Original post 
Note: This thread was proposed by Adept.

Problem: The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask is defined as an Always Female trope in which a woman in leadership position is forced to "unwoman" herself in order to be seen as competent and worthy of her role, because of the public perception that women (and other feminine qualities) inherently make bad leaders. A lot of examples ignore the gendered aspect and makes it a more general "being a ruler is hard because one has to sacrifice their individuality and repress their emotions for the sake of the greater good". I once asked the Trope Description Improvement Drive if we can expand the description to not be so gender focused, but was told that the gendered aspect is essential to the trope, and changing the description to downplay that requirement should be done in TRS.
Based on the wick check, only 3.7% really touches on the character's gender. The majority of the examples are either ZCE (38.9%), or simply variations of "character in high positions are not allowed to publicly emote and this takes a toll on them" (37%). Other examples simply mention that the ruler face difficulties unrelated to public opinion, or face discrimination/opposition due to other factors besides gender (e.g. age, physical appearance, an "inappropriate" personality, etc.).\\

Proposed Solution: Remove the gendered aspect and expand the trope to fit the misuse: a person in a position of authority is forced to wear a "public persona" that forces them to act or behave in a manner against their own feelings/interests to fit their subjects' wishes (or what they thought the subjects would want from a leader). Probably rename as well.

Wick check:

Wick Check for The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask.

Wicks Checked: 54/54

I: 2/54 (3.7%)
II: 20/54 (37%)
III: 21/54 (38.9%)
IV: 7/54 (13%)
V: 4/54 (7.4%)


    open/close all folders 
    I: Correct 
  1. Literature.Song At Dawn: Alienor is beloved in her home county of Aquitaine but despised in the capital, Paris. There she is called "the southern whore". The queenly mask is her only weapon against such gossip. Character wears queenly mask so she won't be seen as a whore. Pass, though more context would be preferable.
  2. TearJerker.Fate Zero: While this is only in backstory and materials, Lancelot's sad fate also shows how horrible Guinevere's life turned out. Let's see: She was just a normal girl, but due to Saber having to be the perfect King, she needed a 'wife' and Guinevere, in this verse actually just one of Artoria's good friend, had to play along with the role of The High Queen out of necessity, not love, discarding any notions that she could be ever any "woman" or "human." Only Lancelot seemed to understand her plight, and yet this tore at Guinevere because loving Lancelot back was also a betrayal to her commitment with Artoria. This continued to torture her that she cried every single day, and just like Lancelot, Artoria couldn't blame her, recognizing her greater burden. Others were not so understanding: Once their affair was found out (by Agravain), Guinevere was locked up and set for execution, setting Lancelot to the path of betrayal just to protect her. While Guinevere was saved, her reputation was forever destroyed, everyone preferred to call her insulting names like "unchaste wife" and "traitorous queen," and it went on so long that she couldn't stop crying and her beautiful face became more and more ragged in each day. Even Lancelot felt absolutely guilty that the result of their love was just making her cry forever. Mentions gendered aspect, as shown in the quote, "Guinevere... had to play along with the role of The High Queen out of necessity, not love, discarding any notions that she could be ever any 'woman' or 'human'."

    II: No gender-based discrimination 
  1. Characters.A Song Of Ice And Fire Jon Snow: Male example naturally. Once he becomes Lord Commander, he feels it's necessary to adopt a reserved personality and put the good of the Watch first. This doesn't go over well with all of his friends there, some of whom think it's a case of Acquired Situational Narcissism. For Jon, he adopts this trope to follow his father's lessons in leadership to him and in his efforts to more effectively fulfill his duty. General assumption that "being a leader means showing no emotions or personal desires".
  2. Characters.Frozen Elsa: Tries to be this, but cannot keep it up; when Anna confronts her at her coronation afterparty, she loses her composure. It's abandoned completely by the end, as she entertains her subjects with a skating rink in summer, skating amongst them as well. No mention of gender roles or expectation.
  3. Characters.Horizon In The Middle Of Nowhere: Her haughty and aloof exterior is mainly an attitude she has to assume due to her role as Queen Elizabeth I. She has to disregard any personal feelings for the sake of the History Recreation, including her love for her twin sister who is meant to be executed. No mention of gender roles or expectation.
  4. Characters.Once Upon A Time Wonderland: A dark, villainous example. She actively cultivates her Queenly Mask, from her flawless appearance to her emotionless facade and her iron rule over her people. On the other hand, she fails to be an effective ruler regardless of trying to live up to it in appearance and action. No mention of gender roles or expectation.
  5. Characters.She Ra And The Princesses Of Power Hordak: More like, "The Man Wearing the Kingly Mask". Hordak rules the Horde with a ruthless, coldly efficient hand, but he doesn't seem to derive any joy from his warlord role, preferring to work on science projects in his sanctum. He's trying to conquer Etheria so that Horde Prime will affirm him, not because he finds conquest and tyranny satisfying. Imp and Entrapta are the few people around whom he can be himself instead of playing the role of Lord Hordak the tyrant. General assumption that "a leader wears a mask and doesn't like their job".
  6. Characters.System Restore: She slips into this role during the second trial, around the time it becomes apparent she and Tanaka are the last viable suspects. Character puts on a mask to avoid suspicion in a crime rather than to deflect any criticism against her leadership.
  7. Characters.The Familiar Of Zero: The position of Queen demands a confident, competent, and most of all spotless image, and so Henrietta has to maintain this image for the public. She takes solace in her friendship with Louise, when no one can see her. No mention of gender roles or expectation.
  8. Characters.The Inkworld Trilogy: Princess Violante: Forces herself to appear emotionless in order to not be seen as fragile. Seems that emotions are seen as a weakness, but doesn't show that it's considered a particularly feminine weakness that she must hide.
  9. Characters.The Last Kingdom Mercia: In Season 4. She loves Uhtred, but a requirement of her ascendancy to the throne of Mercia is that she take an oath of celibacy and thus forsake her own desires for the good of her kingdom. Within an episode of taking the throne, she has adjusted to her role enough that she responds to the news that Uhtred is likely dead with only a brief show of pain before accepting that there are greater matters to deal with. Character has to sacrifice personal desire for the good of the nation. No mention of gender roles or expectation.
  10. Characters.The Villainess Lives Again: Justified. Her mother raised her to be this. Artezia rarely shows her real emotions in front of her subordinates and enemies. Cedric, Lisia, Alice and other selected people close to her are some of the few people who see her real face. No mention of gender roles or expectation.
  11. Fanfic.The Golden Power: Zig-zagged. Zelda rules Hyrule during a period of political turmoil when the economy is in dire straits, the military is nearly non-existent, neighboring kingdoms are preparing to invade and ambitious nobles are vying for her favor at best and her hand in marriage at worst. Despite all of this and her disdain for politics, Zelda thrives under the workload of reestablishing Hyrule as a nation – or at least appears to. Her workaholic schedule is a means of distracting herself from the changes the Triforce of Wisdom is causing in her. The leader appears to be hard working to cope with external turmoil.
  12. Literature.A Brothers Price: Ren has a hard time adjusting to being the eldest, and thus the head of her sisters, which is justified because she hadn't been born nor raised to that role. Simply "being a leader sucks".
  13. Main.Tin Man: The Night Unfurls: Olga is often said to have a stoic/expressionless facade, but she is more proud and passionate than she thinks she is, especially regarding the well being of her kind, the dark elves. Celestine, once a close friend of hers, noted that Olga "had always been a passionate creature" in the remastered version. Given that she has to put on a brave face as queen of the dark elves, this is understandable.
  14. Manga.Its My Life Imomushi Narita: Elise inherited the position of Tribal Chief at an early age after her mother died; being new to the role, and trying to live up to her mother's reputation, she dedicated all her efforts to it at the cost of having any sort of personal life, and as a result, she's awkward to the point of tsundere when dealing with others on an interpersonal level. After she meets Astra and company, she wants to be free to pursue her own desires, but is bound by the responsibilities of her position. Her problems is caused by her age, and later her desire to connect more with the outside world, rather than her gender. Given that her society seems to be a matriarchy anyway, her gender would not be an issue.
  15. SuperpoweredEvilSide.Video Games: Queen Arshtat Falenas in Suikoden V took the Sun Rune into her to prevent it from falling into the "wrong hands." Ever since, she melodramatically rants and cackles authoritatively whenever her "divine rule" is threatened. Once, she even unleashed the Sun Rune, completely dessicating a lake and its nearby landscape and leaving her nearby subjects to die a wasting death. All in all, a Super-Powered Evil Side is a great way to balance The High Queen and her darker counterpart, leading to a natural aloof regality. The country she rules is a Queendom, so whatever mask she needs to put on to deflect opposition would not have been gender-based.
  16. VideoGame.Fox Spirit A Two Tailed Adventure: Hisako is a no-nonsense chief who takes her job as head of her army seriously. She also ties her hair in a martial topknot so it won't get in the way in battle. Deep down, she seeks peace in the village like her people do, but she hides that because she has to stay strong for the upcoming war. Leader hides what she truly feels to stay strong. Nothing about gender.
  17. YMMV.A New Hope: Princess Leia doesn't seem as bothered by the destruction of her home planet as you'd expect, or her Cold-Blooded Torture at the hands of Darth Vader. This gets explored in the 2015 Marvel Star Wars comics, in particular Star Wars: Princess Leia: Leia feels personally responsible for the destruction of her homeworld and her parents' deaths, but can't show it, especially with no surviving family or close friends to confide in (she just barely met Luke and Han). Meanwhile, the Rebel rank and file think she's a cold-blooded Ice Queen, while the leadership won't allow her out of their sight to put herself in any more danger. AFAIK, none of her subordinates ever object to her being in a leadership position due to her gender.
  18. Characters.Princess Evangile: While Ayaka has rejected any sort of responsibility apart from what roles she chooses to take of her own free will, Ritsuko always has to act as people expect her to, which is becoming increasingly burdensome for her. Simply alludes to the difficulty of a leader having to cave in to the subjects' expectations, which has nothing to do with gender.
  19. Characters.Dance In The Vampire Bund: Mina is the sort of person whose first instinct even in the middle of a un-life-or-final-death fight is to protect a human child. Between that and the fact that she looks 12, it is hard to imagine how she can hope to maintain herself as Queen of the Vampires without the whole Stone Bitch pose and a good bit of doing what goes against her better nature. The challenges to her authority seems to come from her childlike appearance and her compassion rather than her gender.
  20. ButNowIMustGo.Video Games: Princess Nyna does this in Fire Emblem: Mystery of the Emblem. After all the Break the Cutie that she went through for her heritage/position and the terrible mistake she committed for the sake of the continent, she decides to leave Archanea in the hands of Marth and Caeda and leave. No mention of gender-based discrimination, just that her position had brought her a lot of hardships.

    III: ZCE or otherwise incomplete context 
  1. Awesome.The Weedverse: When Mr. Mariner enacts an Xanatos Gambit that basically threatens all of Equestrian society to remove the Royal Sisters from power, Gosling manages to convince a mob of nobles who happened to be Celestia's former students. How? By speaking to them honestly about how Celestia thought of abdicating because her subjects no longer loved her or needed her around. Realizing the extent of their Princess's despair, the nobles rally behind Gosling and become his army. No mention of gendered aspect and mask-wearing.
  2. BewareTheNiceOnes.Comic Books: Reginella, queen of the planet Pacificus is a sweet and demure woman, if a bit sad due the duties of ruling over her planet. Whenever her planet is in danger and the usual means don't work, her first reaction is to summon Donald and have him go on a rampage on the threat, or otherwise use his help to annihilate it, and escalates from that, with her final weapon being nightmare-levels of Mind Rape (we don't know if Vampirione ever woke up from the coma)-and the latter would actually be her first solution if it didn't threaten her own life due the strain. Simply "being a leader sucks". No mention of gendered aspect and mask-wearing.
  3. Characters.Baten Kaitos: Zigzagged. She spends most of the game as the woman behind the mask but ultimately fulfills her duty as the mask. Not enough context.
  4. Characters.Child Of Light: *blank*
  5. ComicBook.Princess Ugg: The Queen, with shades of The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask. She is wise, gracious, and poised. How does she have shades of this trope?
  6. Creator.Edmond Hamilton: Empress Tharanya of Sun Smasher. ZCE
  7. Fanfic.Cadance Of Cloudsdale: A less-dramatic variant. Cadance realizes how horrible fate has treated the Crystal Ponies, and combined with their adoration of her, she worries she can't be the Princess they deserve. No mention of gendered aspect and mask-wearing.
  8. Heartwarming.Fire Emblem Three Houses Shortly after siding with Edelgard after the split at the Holy Tomb, one can view her B support if they raised the level high enough prior. There, Edelgard expresses her feelings about how happy she is that Byleth is walking alongside her. She even claims her heart would have turned to ice and she would have become cold and uncaring without them there for her. Knowing how the other routes turn out, one can't help but smile knowing that she will no longer be alone or lose sight of what's right. No mention of both gendered aspect and mask-wearing.
  9. Literature.Mara Daughter Of The Nile: Hatshepsut has shades of this, although she's portrayed as an antagonist. ZCE
  10. Manga.Hellsing: Integra shows this, even though she isn't the ruler of a country. ZCE
  11. PlayingWith.Never A Self Made Woman: Exploited: "Don't worry Chancellor Bob. Every haughty Feudal Overlord in the Kingdom will think my girl Alice just got the throne because I have no sons. She'll eat them all alive while they are underestimating her." Alludes to the female ruler being underestimated due to her gender, although no mention of her wearing a "mask".
  12. Recap.Game Of Thrones S 1 E 10 Fire And Blood: Cat after she gets the news of Ned's death, though it only lasts until she gets out of sight of the Northern soldiers, then she breaks down in anguish. No mention of leadership role and gendered aspect.
  13. VideoGame.Suikoden V: Queen Arshtat is a kind and loving woman, but the needs of the country force her into hard choices and sacrifices. A leader is forced is make hard choices. No mention of gendered aspect and mask-wearing.
  14. WebOriginal.I Went To Another World But Got Sent Back With My Party: Cecily: according to Damian, she's a real Stepford Smiler and slow to show vulnerability. '''No mention of leadership role and gendered aspect.
  15. Characters.The Legend Of Zelda Twilight Princess: In the prologue, she is forced to surrender her kingdom to Zant. ZCE
  16. Main.Lovable Alpha Bitch: Galinda/Glinda from Wicked. Spoiled, ditzy, entitled, and bratty... but also deeply loyal to Elphaba, and in possession of a genuinely good heart beneath it all. By the time act two begins, she's outgrown her Alpha Bitch ways almost entirely, and the end of the show has her ascend to The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask for the sake of the greater good. No mention of her being discriminated or face any challenges in her leadership role, due to gender or otherwise.
  17. Villain with Good Publicity: An even better example is the Red Queen from its spin-off series Once Upon a Time in Wonderland, who is generally liked by the population (though some are terrified of her) and listens to the complaints of her subjects. Her popularity is probably helped by the fact that she was preceded by Cora, and that royalty in the OUAT universe tends not to be great in the first place. Pothole to an entry that actually seems to demonstrate the opposite of the trope, which implies that she's popular among her subjects.
  18. Characters.Inheritance Cycle: Technically not a queen, but it fits her situation nicely. ZCE
  19. Characters.Village Tales The Family: She is on terms of transparent honesty with her lady's-maid, who is a Great Comfort to Her and before whom she can let the not-quite-queenly mask slip. Doesn't show that the character is in a leadership position, or suffers it due to her gender.
  20. BodyguardCrush.Anime And Manga: Alucard is intensely devoted to his Master and Countess Integra Hellsing to the point of any insult done towards her in his presence triggers a Berserk Button. He's referred as her lapdog and bodyguard a couple of times, so fits this role. Pothole to a character's name. No further context.
  21. GroinAttack.Video Games: Mitsuru delivers a rapid series of blows before finishing with a groin kick that knocks the target over. Pothole to a character's name. No further context.

    IV: Irrelevant context 
  1. Characters.Full Metal Panic Main Characters: Teletha Testarossa: She has a bad case of imposter syndrome and is constantly worried that all her soldiers will one day realize (or have already realized) she's ultimately a clutzy teenage girl who's useless in a firefight. Context doesn't mention her putting up any sort of "mask", and her insecurity about her position seems to stem from her lack of fighting ability than her gender.
  2. HeterosexualLifePartners.Video Games: Though Ike's heterosexuality may be debatable. Especially considering that Elincia flirts with him relentlessly, and he ignores her along with every other woman who shows possible interest, and in between games she moves on both handling Crimea as best as she can and, if the player wishes so, possibly reciprocating Geoffrey's Bodyguard Crush on her. Pothole to a completely unrelated entry
  3. Characters.Persona 3 SEES: A significant amount of her aloof attitude is based on her not being that great at socializing, while the rest is based on her attempts to be professional and in control. A character has No Social Skills.
  4. Characters.The Legend Of Zelda Breath Of The Wild Link And Zelda: Zelda's father warns her the nobles believe she's treading this path, because she hasn't manifested the sealing powers that Hylian queens and princesses possess. He's fed up with the intrigue and shadow politics, telling Zelda she must prove them wrong. She eventually does... but not without the entire kingdom falling into ruin beforehand. Not clear what "this path" means. Any contention towards her rule doesn't seem to have anything to do with her gender. Insecurity stems from lack of fantastical powers.
  5. DarthWiki.Heart Of Ice: Irina, as a side-effect of her rigid emotional control, being turned into a living weapon at the age of twelve, and trying to control her ice powers. Context has nothing to do with the character's leadership role. It's basically just saying that the character is The Stoic.
  6. Literature.Tales Of The Five Hundred Kingdoms: Single women in power must beware of loneliness in case the Tradition sends them a Cad, a Rake, or some other betrayer who will take advantage of them. No mention of gender-based discrimination or mask-putting. The context seems to be more of a warning against All Girls Want Bad Boys.
  7. WMG.Lady Gaga: Or alternately, the distortion (similar to melting film) is symbolic for how public opinion of the Empress collapses after her death. Gaga is The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask, or some kind of Fantasy Counterpart Culture Eva Peron, whose sexuality is figuratively (or literally) the only thing keeping her nation together. When she finds pleasure and satisfaction in sex, the kingdom thrives, but as she becomes disillusioned and objectified, the kingdom suffers and dies.

    V: Unclassified 
  1. Main.Ice Queen: Similar to the Iron Lady, a woman in power must carry herself with aloof detachment and remain unmoved whatever the crisis, or no one will respect her authority. Trope in an index. Overlaps with Iron Lady.
  2. Main.The Stoic: The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask Trope in an index.
  3. TheNightUnfurls.Tropes O To Z: Tin Man: Olga is often said to have a stoic/expressionless facade, but she is more proud and passionate than she thinks she is, especially regarding the well being of her kind, the dark elves. Celestine, once a close friend of hers, noted that Olga "had always been a passionate creature" in the remastered version. Given that she has to put on a brave face as queen of the dark elves, this is understandable. Duplicates with Main.Tin Man example.
  4. Main.Standard Royal Court: If there isn't a queen, the process of filling the vacancy is itself a popular plot. She often comes in the varieties dignified and noble and cruel and petty. The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask is usually the supreme ruler herself. Listed as a possible variation for the Queen's role in a Standard Royal Court.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 11th 2023 at 1:48:36 PM

You can't always get what you want.
GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
#2: Mar 27th 2023 at 11:40:21 PM

Paging ~Adept and ~amathieu13 as requested.

Anyway, I agree with the proposal to adjust the definition; less sure about renaming if we're expanding.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 27th 2023 at 1:43:01 PM

You can't always get what you want.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#3: Mar 28th 2023 at 12:32:54 AM

This was the Trope Talk thread on this, BTW.

I dunno what exactly to do with this: I think the current definition is very much a thing, particularly in fantasy and historical fiction (which is, I suspect, why the trope has something of a focus on royalty even though this is something modern female politicians have talked about), but I'm not sure how much it needs to be separate from a broader "Mask of Leadership" trope based around all the reasons a leader might feel obliged to put on an emotionless facade.

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#4: Mar 28th 2023 at 1:04:35 AM

Wanted to be paged because this trope (and whether or not it's different from Iron Lady) has come up in the All Purpose thread once before [1]. While I do think a broader trope for "killing parts of one's personality to fit the role of leader" would be helpful, I don't think we should scrap the entire conceit of this trope since it does focus on an actual phenomenon that is gendered IRL specifically because of misogynistic and patriarchal ideas that conflate "leader" with "man".

I think one way to do so is to transition this from a character trope into a narrative/plot trope, i.e. plots in which female characters in leadership positions are forced to adopt more stereotypically masculine traits/ways of thinking in order to be accepted by their peers as an appropriate leader or be faced with social ostracization/undermining of authority/lack of respect/lack of success in the role from those peers, and the mental/emotional toll that takes. Like a deconstruction of what it takes to pull off a Showing Up Chauvinists.

This narrative (along with Career Versus Man and Career Versus Family) are pretty important to the High-Powered Career Woman archetype and is the more sympathetic explanation for how the Girlboss Feminist becomes to be. And you can go through that struggle without necessarily becoming an Iron Lady, though that is a common endpoint.

So that'd be my vote. Make the broader trope, rework this trope into a plot trope as opposed to a character trope (and rename it because tbh the name is not really clear about what the trope is all about)

ETA: The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask as currently written is on the line between being a character trope and a Plots trope. I'm saying we push it all the way over.

Edited by amathieu13 on Mar 28th 2023 at 4:16:02 AM

Gosicrystal Since: Jun, 2016 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#5: Mar 28th 2023 at 4:12:41 AM

Gaston, if we're gonna remove the gendered aspect of the trope then we definitely need to rename. Doesn't make much sense to have a trope called The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask if a man's example can apply. The current name specifically limits it to female characters.

Edited by Gosicrystal on Mar 28th 2023 at 1:13:23 PM

GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
#6: Mar 28th 2023 at 4:45:46 AM

If people want to rename, then we'll rename. I'm not against renaming (and I wasn't shooting down the idea; none of what I've posted so far in this thread was a mod post); I just think the definition is a bigger problem, particularly because most of the examples ignore the gender aspect anyway. (And we have plenty of gender-neutral tropes with gendered words in their names, even if not usually to the extent of this trope.)

Edit: Now that I think of it, I think I'm now in favor of renaming regardless of what we do with the definition.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 28th 2023 at 6:55:06 AM

You can't always get what you want.
selkies Professional Wick Checker Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Professional Wick Checker
#7: Mar 28th 2023 at 7:53:08 AM

I prefer this being a character-specific trope rather than a plot, but [tdown] to expanding to fit the misuse and making it non-gendered when it's based on misogynistic and stereotypical beliefs and has roots in the former that wouldn't make sense if it were applied in the same way for men. So I agree with amathieu on this and on creating a supertrope for "a person in a position of authority is forced to wear a "public persona" [...]."

Neutral on renaming.

GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
#8: Mar 28th 2023 at 8:18:02 AM

Launching a supertrope would be a job for TLP and not TRS, so do we even need this thread? Short-Term Projects could handle the cleanup.

Are there any ideas other than expanding (which doesn't seem to be a very popular idea compared to the other proposals) that directly affect this trope aside from changing it from a character trope to a plot trope? We could certainly change the focus from characters to plots if it has consensus, but the supertrope idea can be handled independently of this thread.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 28th 2023 at 10:24:28 AM

You can't always get what you want.
GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
#9: Mar 28th 2023 at 8:19:34 AM

Edit: Retracted. Overlooked something.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 28th 2023 at 10:20:53 AM

You can't always get what you want.
Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#10: Mar 28th 2023 at 8:57:05 AM

[up][up][up]I mean, sure, in real life, that kind of thing happens. But given that we have less than 5% of correct examples, this page can't remain as-is. If we're going to prune 95% of the wicks (assuming the statistics of the wick check is representative of the whole thing), it might be easier to create two new tropes — the supertrope, and the gendered subtrope— and disambiguate this page.

That being said, I don't think that the definition for "female rulers have to take on a more masculine/ruthless persona to be taken seriously because the subjects don't think much of female leaders" is meaningfully different (narrative-wise anyway) from "rulers have to take on a more ruthless to be taken seriously because the subjects don't think much of weak and ineffectual leaders".

We can discuss the IRL stereotypes in trope description without making it an essential requirement to the trope. Kind of like pointing out how Vain Sorceress is often Always Female because of the IRL stereotype that Vanity Is Feminine, while still allowing the trope itself to be gender neutral.

@amathieu13: TBH, I can't see how moving this from character to plot trope will actually help. The line separating plot/characterization tropes is often unclear, and the counterpart you mention (Showing Up Chauvinists) is a Super-Trope to mostly character tropes (Action Girl, Passionate Sports Girl, Wrench Wench) rather than plot/narrative ones.

Edited by Adept on Mar 28th 2023 at 11:35:40 PM

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#11: Mar 28th 2023 at 9:18:07 AM

Doesn't Iron Lady already encapsulate the original idea of this trope that women have to be cold and no-nonsense to be treated as authority figures?

I'm down for expanding this trope. I already thought it was for the idea that royalty have to suppress their personalities to be seen as effective rulers.

Edited by PhiSat on Mar 28th 2023 at 10:19:20 AM

Oissu!
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#12: Mar 28th 2023 at 10:30:28 AM

[up]As I understand it Iron Lady is just "a tough/ruthless female leader" - it can just as easily be completely authentic as it can a persona she's specifically adopting.

BlackMage43 Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#13: Mar 28th 2023 at 10:47:53 AM

That they need to give the appearance of toughness, ruthlessness, and coldness in order to get past other people's masculine-tinted expectations of leadership,
This part of the description of Iron Lady does make it seem like it's going for what this trope intends. And I don't think we need to split the concept between royal and non-royal leadership.

Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#14: Mar 28th 2023 at 11:45:14 AM

There are probably two concepts. One is a woman taking "typically male" profession and having to fit into the gender role, and a new person in authority having to Took a Level in Cynic.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#15: Mar 28th 2023 at 11:47:12 AM

Agree that there's no point in distinguishing between royalty and other forms of leadership.

Oissu!
Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#16: Mar 29th 2023 at 11:13:31 AM

I agree that the best course would be to ungender this. Someone having to seem ruthless and uncaring in an authority position to be taken seriously is a character trope. There is certainly a difference in how the sexes are perceived, but it affects both (in reality and in fiction), only to different degrees. We should have the description mention that women are more prone to it but it shouldn't be exclusive to them.

And I agree with widening it to any form of authority - royalty, elected representative, management, maybe even teaching - except for military positions, where being ruthless is expected at all levels.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
Orbiting Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#17: Mar 29th 2023 at 12:41:50 PM

I agree with expanding to fit misuse/ungendering it. While I do think that the current definition is a trope, a less than 5% correct use rate means it's not, for whatever reason, thriving. I suggest saving the current trope description on a sandbox page and put it on the Salvage Yard if no one is interested in taking it back to the TLP to gather examples.

GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
#18: Mar 29th 2023 at 1:14:53 PM

Since I spoke too soon on whether there was support for expanding (since there were further posts in favor of it), I think I'm in favor of expanding it in the way Adept described ("rulers have to take on a more ruthless appearanace to be taken seriously because their subjects don't think much of weak and ineffectual leaders"). If anyone would want to do a sort of Trope Transplant by sending the original definition to TLP as a subtrope of the expanded definition if we expand, that can be done independently of this thread.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 29th 2023 at 3:16:58 AM

You can't always get what you want.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#19: Mar 29th 2023 at 3:49:41 PM

[up][up]I think if the trope is expanded/unsexed there will be plenty of valid examples and salvage yard will not be required.

Oissu!
Orbiting Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#20: Mar 29th 2023 at 4:03:00 PM

I'm talking about salvage yarding the current definition where gender is a big part of the trope, not the ungendered expanded definition

WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
#21: Mar 29th 2023 at 4:07:55 PM

Is there any merit to expanding the gendered version into a more generalized "women have to act strong to be accepted" trope? I know it's a thing but IDK if it's necessarily a trope, however I see no reason why the gendered version would have to be restricted to authority figures.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#22: Mar 29th 2023 at 4:29:10 PM

[up]Iron Lady already kind of contains that idea.

Oissu!
WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
#23: Mar 29th 2023 at 4:29:55 PM

Those are still authority figures (my idea was more for any sort of woman), but yeah, the gendered examples could be moved there.

Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 29th 2023 at 7:30:11 AM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#24: Mar 29th 2023 at 6:40:59 PM

[tup]to expanding and making it no longer gender-based.

ElRise I fix my examples all the time from The Dying City (Season 2) Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
I fix my examples all the time
#25: Mar 29th 2023 at 9:42:13 PM

[tup] for renaming + expanding definition. The gendered aspect is already covered by tropes like Iron Lady, Showing Up Chauvinists, etc.

Graffiti Wall

4th Apr '23 2:51:04 PM

Crown Description:

Consensus was to define The Woman Wearing The Queenly Mask as a gender-neutral trope meaning "rulers have to take on a more ruthless appearance to be taken seriously because their subjects don't think much of weak and ineffectual leaders" and rename the trope. What should its new name be?

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