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STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#1: Feb 28th 2023 at 10:47:48 AM

This is my first Wiki Talk post, so apologies if I did something wrong, but I was redirected here from this ATT.

Basically, I think we should somehow codify when a main page is large enough to justify creating Characters/ and Recap/ pages. My issue comes from The Last of Us (2023), where tropes are being moved often enough that the pages besides the main pages are equal to if not longer than the main page, and tropes involving character arcs or characters themselves are being moved to recap pages under the logic that they're "episode specific", even though "episode specific" and "appears in one episode" don't necessarily mean the same thing (for instance, the character of Henry only appears in episode 5, but his actions impact episodes 4, 5, and 6). Basically, there's no real guideline on when pages are big enough to justify moving tropes or when tropes should be moved to other pages in the first place, and I think it would both assuage current concerns and address future ones if we could come up with some actual rules and paths to take to ensure the main page doesn't get dwarfed by its subpages. For instance, the CSP thread came up with a byte count before a character could be given their own page, and it made those pages far easier to manage by giving us a quick metric to keep or cut pages.

What are some people's thoughts?

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 28th 2023 at 1:53:05 PM

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#2: Feb 28th 2023 at 12:08:14 PM

On certain pages like WesternAnimation.Star Wars The Clone Wars, there is a note that reads:

Please move any character tropes to the proper character pages and tropes associated with particular episodes and story arcs to the recap page.

Some of the other Star Wars pages have "move character tropes to the character pages" note as well. Given that I'm also one of the tropers who frequently move characterization tropes to the character pages where necessary, I wonder what we should do about the notes: should they be hidden or shown in the work page descriptions?

Edited by gjjones on Feb 28th 2023 at 3:13:14 PM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#3: Feb 28th 2023 at 12:25:33 PM

Kind of related to this query, but I've never been a fan of moving subpage examples (i.e. YMMV) to be attached to Recaps since it effectively hides them from your average reader. YMMV pages aren't indexed, so they're just hard to find if they're not viewed from the main work page, and the ones attached to Recaps have only a couple examples in my experience.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#4: Feb 28th 2023 at 12:36:15 PM

That’s part of my issue as well - continuing to use TLOU as an example, it feels like a lot of examples are hidden as the page currently is. If I want to find the tropes for the series I shouldn’t have to dig through 7 recap pages to see them if the main page is nowhere near the too big point

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5: Feb 28th 2023 at 12:50:58 PM

I don’t know if we need guidelines on this as long as nothing is looking stubby. Every work is different. Some works are more character-driven and would justify a heavy character sheet. Some works have “story arc” recap pages, others don’t. An hourlong drama like TLOU or Game of Thrones lends itself well to extensive recap subpages in a way that something with fifteen-minute episodes doesn’t. Anthologies on here tend to have short main pages that only list shared themes and the like, with Recap/ doing the heavy lifting.

I am generally of the opinion that a trope should go to the most specific page it can go to. However, if you think a Recap/ page is too specific to host a trope example (like, it’s about a story arc or something, since TLOU doesn’t have pages for those) it’s better to just move it back.

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#6: Feb 28th 2023 at 1:38:18 PM

In an ideal world, the note "move specific examples to the character sheets/recap pages" would be read with the unspoken addendum "the character sheets/recap pages are now treated as extensions of the example list, with all relevant site guidelines that apply to example lists now applying to them as well". Or in other words, handling them no different than alphabetized example list subpages, which are almost always created because the original example list got too big.

Of course, this will never actually happen, because implementing that would play merry havoc with our current spoiler policies, requiring a heavy revision of those in turn. And I suspect most people really don't want to debate that.

As for the YMMV issue...if we aren't indexing YMMV pages, we really can't siphon off episode-specific items like that without inducing massive confusion for casual readers. Either we start cutting down on people doing that, or we figure out an index system for YMMV.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#7: Feb 28th 2023 at 5:49:48 PM

Then I guess I should move on to my other concern - and sorry to keep talking about TLOU, but it was what started this so I figure I might as well move on. Basically, the user in question is defining "episode specific" as just anything that happens within a single episode, even if it has larger implications for other ones, such as these:

  • All for Nothing: Henry sold out Michael to FEDRA in a desperate attempt to keep his brother Sam alive. This got Michael killed, leaving his sister Kathleen in charge of the resistance in Kansas City and desperate for revenge against him. In the end, Kathleen's fanaticism ends up dooming everyone in Kansas City, Sam gets infected anyway, and Henry ends up committing suicide, meaning Henry's attempts to protect his brother only got everyone in the city killed. Henry's arc is admittedly over in one episode, but the consequences of his actions are spread out across three episodes (4, 5, and 6)
  • Establishing Character Moment:
    • Joel orders Tommy to drive past a family on the side of the road needing help, establishing that he will only look out for himself and his family and will do anything towards that end.
    • Ellie is introduced as a captive, chained to a radiator for days on end, and she still gives her captors no end of sarcasm and foul language.
    • We meet Bill as he's observing the FEDRA evacuation of his town via security cameras, hiding out in a basement loaded with guns and fallout supplies and calling the soldiers "jack-booted fucks." These were spread out across several episodes - I don't know why they needed moved when there were multiple examples
  • Foreshadowing: Episode 2, "Infected," shows how the Cordyceps pandemic began in Jakarta, home of one of the largest flour mills in the world, and implies that contaminated flour likely caused the quick spread across the globe. Other than a radio broadcast that the Millers listen to over breakfast, the previous episode also hints at this by showing several instances in which Joel and Sarah unknowingly avoid eating flour: when Sarah is unable to make Joel birthday pancakes, when they turn down their neighbor's biscuits, when Joel forgets to get a cake, etc. The example itself covers two episodes, so I don't know where it was moved to
  • Writers Cannot Do Math: Maria is pregnant, but a person who was an assistant district attorney before the outbreak 20 years ago would have to be at least in her late 40s in the present day. It's unlikely that a woman of that age could get pregnant without some advanced fertility treatment. She's only appeared in a single episode so far, but moving it to a recap page implies that she won't appear again, which is speculative at best.

And I still really struggle with edits like this where it removes almost everything that was on the page to send it to recap pages. Looking through the history I also see several times where different examples of a trope were added multiple times (such as multiple uses of Adaptational Nice Guy) which imply that they occur often enough to be listed on the main page instead of just on the characters, but you won't know that cause they keep getting moved one at a time.

Like, am I the only person who finds this excessive? If I am then tell me and I'll just call it a day, but it's hard to get a main page that actually looks like a main page when every example that ends up on it gets sent somewhere else. Like I said, I get wanting specificity, but I don't want to dig through nine different pages to see the tropes in a show when that's supposed to be what the main page is for. Am I wrong there?

Basically, if we're not concerned about the main page being too small, then I still think we need some kind of concrete definition for what gets moved if not when, because I strongly disagree with and am confused by a lot of the moves that have happened here and I seem to be alone in that.

I swear I'm not trying to make this an extension of the ATT that started this, but I genuinely am confused by what the protocol is supposed to be here. I've heard differing things over the years and I really think it would be good to come up with some guidelines at least, if not outright rules.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 28th 2023 at 8:54:20 AM

eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#8: Mar 1st 2023 at 12:14:25 AM

"Issue" troper here: My reasoning for moving entries away from the main work page to recap and character pages is based on my understanding of previous discussions around this topic, mainly that:

  1. if a recap page exists, tropes related to that chapter should rather go there than the main page regardless of whether the main page is crowded or not (an argument repeatedly brought up by OP).
    • reasoning: recap pages are extensions of the main work page and if you were to string together all recap pages into a single list together with the main work page (and I hope at some point this wiki will have such a feature) you would end up with the complete set of plot tropes, with the advantage that you can also see them by chapter which would not be the case if we tend to dump examples on the main work page and lose the chapter information.
  2. repetitive tropes: if a plot trope occurs over and over (more than twice in a serial work) in the same context I tend to keep the examples collected on the main page.

Regarding:

  • Writers Cannot Do Math: Perhaps I was too quick to assume that we are not seeing her again. Move the entry back to main if you want.
  • All for Nothing: some overarching tropes actually come to manifest at a specific point in time. the All for Nothing example gets completed in a specific episode when the Nothing happens. I tend to keep the example together with that episode.
    • Edit: I saw this approach being refused above. So I am happy to let go of moving cross-episode examples to recap pages going forward
  • Disabled in the Adaptation: I moved the examples to the characters sheet because they pertain to specific characters. Just because a character trope applies to multiple characters doesn't mean the examples should now go on the main work page instead.
  • Establishing Character Moment: Three examples is borderline. Once a fourth one shows up, I am all for collecting them on the main work page.
  • Foreshadowing: You are right, this should go on the main page with all other foreshadowing examples. Will do the change now.

Edited by eroock on Mar 1st 2023 at 11:04:36 AM

MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#9: Mar 1st 2023 at 12:38:08 AM

My inclination is similar to that reached [up]. Overarching tropes that happen to come to a head in a single episode, or (put another way) which technically "happen" in a single episode but which require other episodes to make sense/qualify for the trope, should go on the main trope list. On the other hand, tropes that happen individually in many different episodes go on those episodes' recap pages no matter how many times they happen. That may differ from current established policy, though.

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#10: Mar 1st 2023 at 1:19:42 AM

Personally, as long as the work page or subpages aren't left as a stub I see no issue, they are in the same space anyway.

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 1st 2023 at 12:20:00 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#11: Mar 1st 2023 at 1:43:41 AM

^ So you would agree that multiple Establishing Character Moment examples happening in multiple episodes should stay on their recap pages and not be moved to the main work page as OP suggests?

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#12: Mar 1st 2023 at 6:42:21 AM

This is why I think at least some guidelines would be helpful. First, thanks for coming here and I appreciate all your logic, but for me at least, if there's three different examples of a trope, I think that's enough to just collect them on the main page. That's several examples right there, I don't see why it makes sense to split them. There are even several other examples of tropes with three examples on the page which haven't been moved, so it's inconsistent right now.

And I guess my main issue is that I just disagree on when things should be moved. Like I said, seeing things by chapter is cool, but I don't want to dig through nine pages just to see the show's tropes, I want to be able to see them in one clear place. I thought that's what the main page is for but people seemingly aren't agreeing, which is why this thread started in the first place. My main concern with this is both the ease of navigation and also getting some kind of actual guideline for when things should be moved, because right now we've got several ideas being thrown around and I don't necessarily care which one gets picked as long as something does and we don't have to have an issue like this again.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Mar 1st 2023 at 9:47:28 AM

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#13: Mar 1st 2023 at 7:43:32 AM

[up][up] If these can't be summarized as a general "this series likes showing establishing shots for nearly the entire cast, specifically:", for me it'd make sense to not group them.

[up] Elaborate about when do you think splitting is warranted, when the trope occurs less than 3 times? Visibility and navigation was brought up some time ago, but for an argument of deprecating Characters/ and Recap/ altogether, and I prefer to avoid that route.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#14: Mar 1st 2023 at 8:00:27 AM

3 was just the number that came up because that's the amount of ECM examples that got moved, but if I have to put a number on it, then yeah, that's when I say something is common enough to stay on the main page. Once or twice is one thing, but once it happens three times I think it's clear that it's an intentional and consistent creative choice that doesn't limit itself to a single episode.

And frankly, I've had issues with recap pages in general in the past (though I wasn't part of any discussion to depreciate the namespace and would also like to avoid that) - there's so much inconsistency with the pages and what should be on them that I think requires a larger discussion, so it's not surprising to me if my argument lines up with someone who wanted to get rid of them. For example, the reason why I was confused about these moves in the first place was because I know I heard several times in the past that Recap pages were meant to be saved for once the main page got too big to handle it and needed split for episode-specific stuff; now I'm hearing that that's not the case and Macron stated in the ATT that issues like this have come up before, so we clearly need something written because several people have several different ideas on how it's supposed to work.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Mar 1st 2023 at 11:03:27 AM

eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#15: Mar 1st 2023 at 9:56:42 AM

My conclusion up to this point: Moving examples that are confined to a single episode from the main work page to the recap page is an accepted practice. I am gonna continue so until a policy says otherwise. I am not gonna move any more cross-episode examples though. I will also continue to move character tropes from the main page to the characters page.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#16: Mar 1st 2023 at 10:11:11 AM

And that’s your right, but my concern isn’t with you doing that anymore, it’s trying to trying to get some kind of guideline so that the confusion is cleared up. Like I said, I’m not the only person misunderstanding what’s supposed to be happening, so I think it will help to have some kind of guideline written down - plus, being honest, if we’re supposed to be moving all single-episode tropes to recap pages, then a lot of pages severely need cleaning up because I’ve never seen it applied strictly before and some work pages are filled with single-episode tropes

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#17: Mar 1st 2023 at 10:22:34 AM

It would be better if you were specific about what kind of inconsistencies you are seeing. Like I said, I don’t think inconsistent recaps are a inherently problem because works are inconsistent about how they treat installments. Fandoms are different, too. A TV show with a large online population eagerly awaiting the next episode every Sunday is going to be troped (and recapped) differently from a semi-obscure graphic novel that updates sporadically from an anime that ended 15 years ago, even if all their installments could support a recap page.

Also, not sure if I am understanding your last point, but recap subpages are optional. There is no huge need for a mass cleanup to make new Recap pages. If the Recap pages already exist though, then yes, tropes should be moved where able.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#18: Mar 1st 2023 at 10:41:30 AM

I guess here's what I mean - so if the hypothetical we're using is that three examples are okay to move, then I'm confused why the following entries/lists weren't moved when the examples within them take place within single episodes:

    Examples 

  • Agonizing Stomach Wound:
    • In Episode 1, Joel's daughter Sarah dies from this after being shot by a soldier who was ordered to execute her and Joel to prevent the spread.
    • In Episode 3, Bill is hit in the side while trying to fight off intruders and Frank saves him and cauterizes his wounds.
    • In Episode 6, Joel himself gets one when he gets stabbed in the belly with a broken baseball bat by a Raider attacking him and slowly passes out from the blood loss and pain. He spends the next episode unwell and in pain, while Ellie nurses him.
  • Awesome, but Impractical: Joel gets an assault rifle in the second episode and it proves great for getting rid of some Clickers, but beyond that, the weapon ends up being useless. It's both too heavy for him to carry for long and ammunition for it is too hard to come by, and he ends up abandoning it once a better weapon comes along.
  • Born After the End:
    • In the first episode Tess explains away the bruises on her face (given to her by Robert's goons) to Joel by claiming she got jumped by a couple of teenagers. Later she tells him the truth:
    Tess: C'mon, you know these guys were born after the outbreak. Never learned how to argue, they just start swinging. Fuckin' nineteen-year-old pieces of shit.
    • Ellie later reveals that she as a 14-year-old (and possibly most kids) cannot swim because the QZ doesn't have pools.
  • Composite Character: An extremely minor instance, but in the game, the first infected seen is the Millers' neighbor Jimmy Cooper; later they drive past "Louis's farm" which is on fire. In the series, Jimmy is replaced by Nana Adler, but they drive past "Jimmy's place," which is on fire.
  • Distant Prologue: The Teaser for the first episode takes place in a 1968 talk show, 35 years before the actual start of the story. Then after showing the beginning of the outbreak, the story makes a 20-year jump to where things really start.
  • Gasoline Lasts Forever: Downplayed, but still present. Joel has to refuel Bill's truck from siphoned gas about once an hour, and says that the fuel is too degraded to get more use out of. In reality, fuel degradation sets in much quicker, and the gas one would find in highway wrecks would be useless after just a year, much less twenty.
  • No Periods, Period: Averted Trope.
    • Ellie finds a box of tampons while searching the basement, this making her give out a quiet "Fuck yeah!"
    • After Ellie and Joel get to Jackson, Ellie finds that Maria has left her fresh clothes and a menstrual cup.

As far as I remember, these all take place within single episodes but weren't moved with the others.

As for the potential "cleanup issue" I'm referring to, I'm talking about shows like Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., all of which have both multiple example subpages and active recap pages. I would obviously have to dig through to find the examples and I don't have time for that at the moment, but even a quick glance at AOS's "A" folder shows at least three where we should be moving them.

Like I said at this point, I genuinely do not care which way we go, but right now it feels like sometimes examples are on all the pages, sometimes they're on one, and sometimes they're on the wrong one, and while which one they're on doesn't really matter to me if it doesn't matter to anyone else, I feel like it should be consistent. That's all I'm going for, unless I'm just crazy and it already is consistent. Am I making sense here? I don't want to sound like I'm on the attack or anything but I want to be sure I'm doing things right for the future.

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#19: Mar 1st 2023 at 11:13:46 AM

"why the following entries/lists weren't moved". Perhaps because they're yet to be moved?

I feel just like the is this split early topic, this is just going to be a by-case basis.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#20: Mar 1st 2023 at 11:17:57 AM

At least a few of those entries have been there since before I started editing the page - one of them is even my own - and entries have been moved constantly since I first got to the page, so the odds that they were going to be moved is unlikely unless they all got missed.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Mar 1st 2023 at 2:18:07 PM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21: Mar 1st 2023 at 2:06:05 PM

Benefit of the doubt, I think. It's a long page and stuff gets missed all the time; there's no need to assume malice or misapplication of rules.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#22: Mar 1st 2023 at 2:11:36 PM

I mean, I specifically included the option that they all got missed, but sure. I'm clearly the only person who has any concern about this or feels the need to actually make any kind of guideline and my other main concern of knowing where to put tropes for the benefit of myself in the future is kinda not getting discussed, so if no one else feels the need to do anything, I'm fine just calling this discussion a wash.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Mar 1st 2023 at 5:16:43 AM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#23: Mar 1st 2023 at 2:29:51 PM

The thing is, I think "do we put this on the main page or the recap page" is a reasonable question, and one that may not have very clear-cut answers. We even have a dedicated thread for Main page/character sheets because the boundary can get pretty fuzzy. And we have a recap cleanup because recap subpages can genuinely be low-effort and messy. But then the step to "we need hard guidelines because everything's a big, big mess", which reads rather panicky.

In the case of The Last of Us (2023), because there is at least one troper actively moving, I went Occam's Razor and assumed that they were just missed rather than the guidelines being nonexistent/nonsensical.

The general rule of thumb, as said above, is that a trope goes on the most specific page it can go to. If there are tropes that have not been moved, as above, that doesn't mean that the guideline is invalid. They might have legit just not been moved.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 1st 2023 at 4:30:58 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#24: Mar 1st 2023 at 2:34:38 PM

I mean, I don’t think I was ever saying “everything is a mess”, just that I was confused about what the rules were and I thought some consistency would help. If I came off strong then I apologize, but my goal was never “everything is a mess”, it was “I don’t know how this works and I’m hearing different things, so I think actually codifying it would be useful”. If people disagree then sure, that makes sense, but as someone who’s been here for years and still doesn’t really know how it’s supposed to work, I thought it could be helpful. Nothing “follow these rules or else”, just a “here’s what we’re going for”

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#25: Mar 1st 2023 at 2:39:50 PM

If that's not what you meant, then my apologies. But it is the tone that I got from "if we do this for Last of Us, what about Breaking Bad and Agents of SHIELD and..."

...to which, there is always stuff that was missed or needs to be cleaned on here, that doesn't mean the rule's bad :-)

Anyway, there is a thread for drafting Recap/ guidelines. Not a lot of discussion went into "when" to move (probably because it wasn't a huge concern for the responders), but you can revive the discussion with that talking point.


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