Snoot Game cleanup

I think this could be because (I just heard this so take this with a grain of salt) the earlier builds had a glitch that made the choice moot, the bad ending will play no matter what you pick. It was fixed later on.

This isn't related to the game's transphobia, but should the page be in the VisualNovel/ namespace, not VideoGame/? It's a very basic Ren'Py VN with no major interactive gameplay elements aside from making choices.

From what I can tell (I haven't played it), it seems to be more so a Visual Novel, so that sounds like a good idea to me.

There was a discussion on the "Troping works that promote bigotry" thread about whether or not the game counts as a Shallow Parody if some of the elements were inspired by GVH's development.

Information about GVH was limited during the timeframe in which Snoot was developed. Basically there were short character bios on the main GVH site and the premise of the story ("high school struggles, also a meteor's coming and we're all going to die"). Snoot axes the meteor plot, leaving just the high school stuff, but now focused solely on converting Fang. Everything else is shallow window dressing to move the story along.

While Snoot does the basics to come off as a Shallow Parody, there's a specific intent of it — spreading anti-progressive, anti-LGBTQ+ messages that runs counter to KO_OP and GVH's values. We should be fair and straightforward in its discussion; we shouldn't look like we're promoting the game or celebrating its values.

Seconding that it should be classified as "visual novel" instead of "video game".

Edited by WolfNanaki on May 22nd 2023 at 1:01:03 PM

Haven't really been keeping up with this thread in a while, but I noticed that SatoshiMiwa deleted a line about the game's aesop being anti-LGBT by saying "there are absolutely no jabs at the LGTB community, except a couple slurs made by Anon, who is shown to be an asshole. This is true as of the current version - unsure if it was different in earlier versions".

Reinstate, albeit with a link to this discussion.

I get that this game touches on a sensitive issue, with a less-than-tactful approach. But I bit the bullet and played through the game to see all four endings. And it's really apparent that a lot of the talk in this thread comes from people who haven't played it and who have no interest in actually verifying the claims made about it.

At no point in the game (and I mean NO point) does the player try to convert or detransition Fang out of their identity. The closest is the talk on the rooftop, where the protag says Fang needs to let it happen naturally, instead of forcing oneself to be someone they're not. And that's mainly about Fang's whole persona, not just the gender issue. But even in terms of gender, that's still not anti-trans. When people are trans or NB, and they try to force themselves to be cis, they're not being who they really are.

In one bad ending, the protag gets drunk and says a bunch of hurtful things about Fang's gender identity. This is unambiguously presented as a bad thing, and it ends their friendship entirely.

Trish is not presented as having "groomed" or even "pressured" Fang into being nonbinary. Rather, Trish is over-protective, and when her friend was having a crisis of self, she latched onto the idea of her being NB. We see several other instances of Trish being overly controlling, thinking she always knows best. In the best ending, the two of them reconcile and remain best friends.

If anything, the game's approach is to give people space, listen to them, and allow them to be their own person instead of trying to do what you think is best for them. In all story paths, the protag eventually makes an effort to refer to Fang as "they". Only after this point does Fang's gender identity diverge between story paths. And in one ending, she over-corrects and becomes unhappy and overly dependent on the protag, still trying to force herself into being someone she's not.

And I would like to stress that very little of the game is about gender at all. It's only a small element of the character drama, and even then it's only tangential to the major story points.

I'm not ruling out the idea that the devs have non-progressive views. But it's not the hateful propaganda game that so many are claiming.

Boredman, while I do appreciate your input, I feel as though the way you're gone about this is missing the bigger issue regarding this game and its messages about trans and nonbinary people overall. It is not a case where we pin down exact moments of Anon telling Fang "Being nonbinary is stupid and bad for you, and you need to stop." If it were that straightforward in its approach, it wouldn't have gotten the support it has from outside 4chan, let alone people arguing about whether or not it's transphobic.

But anyway, we do see many moments of transphobic beliefs laced throughout the game. For example, Anon analyzing Fang's wardrobe and assuming Fang's nonbinary gender is really just attention-seeking behavior◊. Or how everyone seems to drop calling Fang "they/them" pronouns the moment Fang's out of earshot, including their own brother, who claims Fang was happier before becoming nonbinary. Or how Anon almost never genders Fang correctly, either out loud or in his own thoughts. Or how after Fang detransitions to Lucy, Anon refers to past-Fang's attitude as non-binary, liberal, Trish-militantism◊.

"The game's approach is to give people space, listen to them, and allow them to be their own person instead of trying to do what you think is best for them." Which would be fine in literally any other story, except for the context in which this VN exists.

Fang is not owned by Cavemanon. They were the creation of queer-friendly indie studio KO_OP, and they were created as a queer character for a queer audience. Regardless of how "heartwarming" or what "positive messages" Snoot Game claims to espouse, it's all in service to a story that justifies right-wing narratives about trans and NB people, done using somebody else's queer character to deliver the message under a cloak of plausible deniability.

If you go to Cavemanon's official Snoot Game site, you can download a digital art book compiled by the team. Within it, you'll find a text document of all the raw text used in the final game, along with some deleted lines. The file is called "Anon stops a school shooting.txt." And one of the deleted lines, from the scene in E4 when Anon and "Lucy" make a toast on the school roof, has Anon saying "Fuck KOOP".

The intent of this game, and what its team thinks of queerness, is clear.

Edited by WolfNanaki on Sep 27th 2023 at 4:17:42 AM

Yeah, the game really is that bad. It is all Dog Whistles about LGBT people. Not to mention the whole reason for it's existence is a shot at an LGBT friendly game. We shouldn't advertise it. At least with something like Frank Miller's Holy Terror we make note of the bad quality and that Miller eventually came to disown it. This page is practically an ad for an American Republican fantasy game.

"Anon analyzing Fang's wardrobe and assuming Fang's nonbinary gender is really just attention-seeking behavior."

Nonbinary or otherwise, Fang's fashion style is definitely edgy and attention-grabbing. That seems to be the main point of a lot of alt/punk fashion, to look quirky and unconventional and try to stand out. Anon mentally compares Fang's fashion and gender expression to his younger self running around school with a cape, goggles, and three toy katanas.

Even still, Fang pushes back on Anon's attitude by telling him "Non-binary people don't owe you androgyny." It's not presented as something the game wants you to believe, but it's not wholly dismissed either.

"Or how everyone seems to drop calling Fang "they/them" pronouns the moment Fang's out of earshot, including their own brother"

I feel like people put too much importance on pronouns. Their main function isn't to signal gender, it's to indicate the subject you're talking about without having to spell out their name each time. I've seen a minority of trans people who don't have any preference for which pronouns people use for them, as long as they're being respectful. And it just becomes ridiculous when you hear butthurt conservatives whine about pronouns, because it's just such a trivial matter.

Regardless, using "they" as a singular gender-neutral pronoun can be difficult to adjust to, for a person who isn't used to using it that way. Naser makes some attempts to use neutral terms and pronouns, but when he has other things on his mind he slips back into using female terms.

"who claims Fang was happier before becoming nonbinary."

And that can be an indication that a person isn't being true to themselves, or has another problem that others aren't aware of. In Snoot Game's story, Fang isn't actually nonbinary, so that fits.

"Or how Anon almost never genders Fang correctly, either out loud or in his own thoughts."

All the way until just before the endings. When the prom announcement is made, for the first time, Anon makes a real effort to use neutral pronouns for Fang◊ (except in the worst ending). Fang acknowledges this, and only in response to this does Fang express to Anon her conclusion about her identity.

"Or how after Fang detransitions to Lucy, Anon refers to past-Fang's attitude as non-binary, liberal, Trish-militantism."

You left out the dialogue between the screenshots. Fang/Lucy responds to the first screenshot by saying "Who said I did?" She then laments how she didn't work out as a tough person, a big musician, or a good girlfriend.

This dialogue only happens in ending 3, where Fang rejects her nonbinary identity too hard, being unwilling to even look at old photos or try and connect with anybody she knew before. She beats herself up too hard over her behaviors, and swings the pendulum too far in the other direction, becoming passive and abandoning her ambition, and being wracked with poor self-esteem.

With all this being said, I can still agree that the game does have some bias against nonbinary identities. Hell, the modding guide refers to the developers as "a bunch of homophobic puerto ricans from a vietnamese secondhand fleshlight manufacture network". But it's not a major focus, and it's profoundly misleading and off-mark to claim that the point of the story is to detransition a nonbinary character. Or to call it "an American Republican fantasy game". As I said before, Fang only comes to her new female identity after being given time and space to better understand herself. And it's only briefly given any focus. Other aspects of Fang's character are given way more attention.

I'm not opposed to the article having mention and even criticism of the game's treatment of LGBTQ issues. But it should be accurate and in good faith, and not just ranting about inaccurate secondhand gossip about it.

And now that GVH has come out, the general consensus seems to be that the story is entirely forgettable. It sounds like Snoot Game actually had more passion put into it and a more compelling story, edgy themes aside.

Edited by Boredman on Oct 3rd 2023 at 5:50:48 AM

"And now that GVH has come out, the general consensus seems to be that the story is entirely forgettable. It sounds like Snoot Game actually had more passion put into it and a more compelling story, edgy themes aside."

According to whom? Certainly not reviewers. Seems to be doing quite well on Metacritic and OpenCritic. Unless you pal around with a crowd that wasn't receptive of this game and never asked anyone outside that bubble what they thought of it.

And even if GVH did end up being a dreadful, forgettable, unplayable game, that still wouldn't justify the anti-LGBT harassment its developers have faced since June 2020, nor the proliferation of harassment stemming from Snoot Game. And for you to claim Snoot Game is the more passionate game, when 90% of its humor is derived from references and its whole story is tailored to enforced an anti-trans narrative, not to mention its casual use of slurs and recurring n-word joke, that says a lot about what "edgy themes" you're willing to overlook. Frankly, that alone makes me see your opinions as worth dismissing.

Just holler him. Whether he's engaging in conscious bad faith or just completely clueless, we're not going to get anything productive out of this coversation

"that still wouldn't justify the anti-LGBT harassment its developers have faced since June 2020"

Good thing I never said or implied that it did.

"nor the proliferation of harassment stemming from Snoot Game."

I don't doubt that KO_OP has been hit with harassment and negativity. But I doubt that a parody game by itself led to much of it, or that the creators of said parody bear responsibility.

"... that says a lot about what "edgy themes" you're willing to overlook. Frankly, that alone makes me see your opinions as worth dismissing."

[snip] Being offensive does not negate that a work can have passion behind it.

I dispute that the whole story is tailored to an anti-trans narrative, though it is somewhat dismissive of nonbinary identities. I think your mileage may vary on just how much of a detriment it is to the game's story. I admit that, having no stake in these issues myself, it didn't stand out to me too badly.

[snip] But yes, I think I overstated how many players didn't like the story.

I genuinely don't want to step on anybody's toes here. But it's hard to find any common ground when you decide from the get-go that there's no point in engaging with someone who came to a different conclusion. And this isn't a "we want rights vs we hate you" disagreement between us. Transphobia and anti-LGBTQ sentiment are a huge problem that has become worse in recent years. But I don't think that Snoot Game should be just dismissed as irredeemably transphobic. Maybe that makes me clueless.

And I'm probably a little overly defensive of the game because parts of the story resonated with me, and a lot of the discussion surround it has been misinformed and biased. I see a bit of myself in the way Anon ends up in ending 2, and the way Fang ends up in ending 3. Isolated, keeping their heads down, not trying to stand out, unambitious, taking the easy and passive road through life, and no self esteem. That's why I stress the game's themes of self-improvement, agency, and empathy over its flippant treatment of LGBTQ matters. It makes me want to make something of myself.

Edited by Tabs on Oct 3rd 2023 at 1:27:17 AM

I don't know about Metacritics, but Steam reviews is filled with reviews that marked as positives, but in reality which say something like "Nice that someone made a fan game based on Snoot Game" or praising Snoot Game in some way, and everywhere i look in the internet, be it social media or YouTube, even those who don't like Snoot Game, say that GVH is very boring "nothing burger", where all events relegated to the very start and the end, with the middle being "nothing happens" and QTE minigames being made in such a way, that it's impossible to lose, even if you put the controller down and refuse to play them.

Unfortunate reality is that regardless of the what you get out of it, the game, due to being made by a 4chan team and containing some really unfortunate implications regarding it's portrayal of LGBTQ community, is dead set in stone as "horrible worthless piece of trash" regardless of the actual quality of anything else. Like, it's in the camp "You like it therefore you're a bigot or a troll" and "You didn't liked GVH therefore you're a bigot and a troll", regardless if you managed to get something compelling out of it, that isn't connected to already mentioned unfortunate implications regarding the portrayal of LGBTQ community in the game.

For some it's, rather understandable, "be all and end all" regarding the game, especially with how agressive this thread seems to take disliking GVH and liking Snoot Game.

I do add, that in Ending 3, it really doesn't seem that Fang becoming a "tradwife" and being extremely codependant on Anon is portrayed as a "good ending", with even Anon being showed to be lightly disturbed by this.

The perfect ending seems to be Ending 4, where Fang becomes a music teacher and remains independant and everyone getting a happy ending, even Trish and Naomi.

Also, there are bonus chapters in the game, that portray Trish and Naomi (which the original game trated rather harshly) as much more sympathetic, with Anon even apologizing to Trish for refusing to actually getting to know her, before they get into a beef.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Oct 3rd 2023 at 11:14:24 AM

As far as actually improving the page, there are a number of instances where the incorrect claim that "Anon convinces Fang to stop being nonbinary" is made. Regardless whether you think the game is transphobic, this statement is just flatly untrue.

As I said before, Fang doesn't begin identifying as female because Anon convinced her, it's because she was given support and space to explore her identity. Anon actually starts referring to Fang with they/them pronouns before Fang tells him she's not an enby.

Also, if i want to create Heartwarming and Tear Jerking page for the game, should i ask here about it or somewhere else?

You should probably ask here or ask a mod directly.

It really isn't untrue, have you played the game or read about it? You seem defensive about it.

... I explicitly spelled out why it isn't true. The player/Anon does not make an effort to persuade Fang to stop being nonbinary. The farthest they go is telling Fang to be themself and not force themself into an identity or try to prove themself to others. Unless you stretch the meaning so far that "telling your friend they should be true to who they really are" counts as "convincing them to stop being nonbinary".

One of the biggest themes of the game is allowing others to have agency. A very early script was posted on 4chan, and the devs asked for critique in order to improve it. One poster addressed how the story, like a lot of visual novels, was about "fixing" the waifu love interest and not giving any thought to their agency as a person. This was especially problematic because Fang's character was written as a rebellious teen who's desperate for validation and feels like they have no agency.

The poster was of course critical of people who latch onto LGBTQ labels, but still concluded: "It shouldn't matter if she's goth or bisexual, as long as this comes from within, and not because this will make up for her lack of personhood. This is why tradwife is missing the point a bit, it's substituting colored hair and pronouns for Jesus and prayer. She still does it because its an identity without any real substance of the self behind it."

This focus on self-actualization and agency is explored directly in the worst ending. After Fang's guitar string breaks at prom and they're forced to go back to playing the bass guitar, the performance bombs. Anon then lets slip that Naomi set the two of them up to try and "fix" Fang, leading to a complete meltdown as they realize that they haven't been given a real choice about anything important.

I also explained in depth how I played through the game and got all endings, and yes I directly admitted that I'm probably a little defensive about it because parts of it resonated with me. I hope I'm coming across clearly, but please let me know if I'm not.

Edited by Boredman on Oct 4th 2023 at 8:33:47 AM

Can i make those pages then?

Oh by the way I moved VideoGame.Snoot Game to VisualNovel.Snoot Game after seeing the sequel under the Visual Novel namepspace

Edited by randomtroper89 on Oct 5th 2023 at 1:01:06 PM

The character page should probably be updated aswell. At the moment it's very bare bones and only really covers surface level stuff.

Also I reckon the take that section should be reworked a bit. I wouldn't say the entire game's existence is meant to be a jab at Goodbye Volcano High, I do think the scene where they talk about the trailer of Goodbye Volcano High itself should be used as the example instead, where anon calls it a "shitty netstix cartoon knock off." Additionally it's more of a take that to "movie games" that have become associated with Sony in recent years, since it happens during a conversation between Reed and Anon talking about which is better, Playstation or Xbox.

If you want a more meta "take that" then you could make the case there is one at the target audience of 4chan users. Whenever Anon acts like a typical 4channer, this is almost always presented as being a negative thing. Especially during the "Bowling for Volcano High" and "Anon and the Infinite Sadness" endings. In the former, his complete inability to understand social interactions (something that is criticized of 4channers) leads to Fang having a mental breakdown and most likely was the thing that pushed them to do what they do. On the flip side in the latter ending, Anon's comments about Fang (drunk as he is) drives them away and causes him (after a stint in the navy) to become a depressed suicidal loner who hates the world (another view of a 4chan user). Compared to "Volcano Highschool Musical" and "Fast Times at Volcano High" where Anon drops alot of his 4chan quirks and tends to have a more optimistic opinion of the future.

Also something else about the ending "Anon and the Infinite Sadness". Under the 'An Aesop' trope, it makes the mention that Fang becomes a "drug addicted wreck". There is nothing in the game that actually alludes to that. Anon (as deep into his doomer persona that he is) doesn't make any sort of observation even vaguely like that.

Original thread creator here. I've moved on from the discussion around Snoot Game and Goodbye Volcano High a while ago (while I thought GVH had potential I was also trying to cut out a doomscrolling habit I had, which included the whole debate surrounding if the game was bad or good) and probably don't intend on coming back to it. That being said, I do think WolfNanaki raises valid points and that the game is tropable as long as the page isn't lying about what the game's about (for example, I wouldn't say the game's an Affectionate Parody given the idea was built around improving a game that was mocked before its release).

Don't have a huge amount to add but I don't understand how anyone could, in good faith, try to claim that a project isn't massively anti-LGBT when it literally exists as a parody of an LGBT game that had not yet even been released, and the 'good' ending in this parody involves the main character realising that they're actually not LGBT at all, whereas a bad ending has them never come to this conclusion, and as a result they commit a school-shooting and then kill themselves.

OK, backpedalling a few posts, but we have a case of "he said, she said" here. The current page states that in the ending "Anon and the Infinite Sadness" (the second worst ending), Fang is a drug addict when Anon sees them again in the epilogue (and Anon declines to do anything to help them). The poster TP 11 claims that Fang doesn't become a drug addict in that ending.

Which one is it? Are the relevant screenshots available anyway?