Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest
for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:34:22 PM
Made by the same people and have a few expies running around - most notably, -saga has a couple weird Spirit Advisor children who resemble the main couple from -gears - but I don't believe anything's explicitly connected them. -saga was apparently at one point in its development going to be a prequel to -gears, though, and some think it still is.
Wilhelm, Prof
Question guys but a bit a go I got up Corvus from Dragon Quest IX for this trope and I had mentioned no one else is really good enough for the trope apart from a guy called Goresby Purvis who's got an Affably Evil shtick with him. My issue is that he doesn't do any long term planning and that. However in his boss fight he pulls off a bunch of moves that can easily wipe out the player and their team and all he uses is his blade. Can a boss fight be enough for magnificence for you guys?
What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Give it a shot. If it fails, it will help to establish the standards of what makes someone worthy of this trope.
By the way, as you can probably tell, Xenosaga has a lot of villains all engaged in a huge Gambit Pileup with each other, so if you're curious, here's why I don't think anybody else hits MB:
Patriarch Sergius and Dmitri Yuriev are far too senselessly sadistic (got them both up at CM earlier this week), and even if they weren't are both ultimately just two more notches on Wilhelm's long list of glorified errand boys. Albedo the assassin is legitimately straight-up unwell in the head, such that I'd feel uncomfortable proposing him for CM or MB. Most of the other named villains are bog-standard Recurring Boss-type minions that are dime a dozen in JRPGs...
...and that leaves Kevin. Kevin is clearly the second-best long-term evil schemer in the galaxy after Wilhelm and the one who ultimately kills him, but he's... more than a little creepy tbh. He began his whole relationship with Shion under false pretenses to serve the evil plan, even though he did end up legit falling for her, and there's a definite undercurrent that his torture of Allen is motivated a lot by him being a romantic rival.
In the end, Wilhelm counts because he's puppeteering everybody else, and Sellers counts due to being the only one not giving a damn about the grand conspiracy either way, ironically saving him from being puppeteered by Wilhelm too much.
Yes to Wilhelm and Phaedrus.
- Radiant is the Blood of the Baboon Heart: Deborah St. Simone is the daughter of the first Sovereign Force Majeure and seeks to follow in his footsteps to become an infamous supervillain no matter the cost. Forced by her mother Bobbi into a boring normal life, Deborah trades her eggs to Dr. Venture for her mother's invisibility and creates the villainous organization ARCH to ruin the Guild of Calamitous Intent. Becoming the villainess Mantilla, she seeks to emulate and partner with the successful Mrs. Monarch. She manipulates the Monarch into joining ARCH, helps him launch a raid on Ventech Tower, and abandons him while leaving false evidence that Mrs. Monarch leads ARCH. Sabotaging Dr. Venture's tech show, Mantilla launches the tower into the heavens to get rid of the Monarch while uncaring of the bystanders in the tower. Mantilla hoped to force Mrs. Monarch to join her, but is ultimately talked down and given everything she ever wanted in exchange for ending her destructive plans.
Writeup:
Underworld: Red in Tooth and Claw: Lucian is once again presented as the smart leader of the Lycans, who keeps his group alive through his scheming and wit. Evading the Death Dealers for months and keeping his group assured in his leadership, whenever they doubt his goals, Lucian led his group in stealing and devouring a livestock from a local tribe and upon being attacked by the vampires, quickly managed to hide himself and nearly all of his fellow Lycans from them. Recognizing Raze's fighting skills, Lucian organized his escape from the Death Dealers and then turned him into a Lycan, fully knowing that his need for revenge will lead him to slaughter the Death Dealers and his lycanthropy will lead him to being banished from his tribe, leaving him no choice, but to join Lucian's group.
Yes to Prof (Again welcome and good work!) and Welhelm.
Here's a fun one that basically comes from this trope being distilled to its most simple elements:
What's the work?
Quest 64 is a very straightforward RPG for the Nintendo 64 in which hero Brian goes on a quest (64) to find his missing dad and has to save the kingdom from a series of villains who keep showing up as the "true" mastermind until a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere turns out to be the real Big Bad.
Who is Shannon? What has she done?
Shannon Stork is a woman who shows up in every inn Brian visits and seems to know something about everything. Unfortunately for poor Brian—as much as he's characterized as being able to feel disappointment—she's also The Dragon to the aforementioned random Final Boss.
Manipulating the people of Celtland to revive the demon lord Mammon, Shannon defeats Brian's father when he interrupted her master's... um... "plans". Meeting with Brian in the final dungeon, she reveals her true alliance and sets about the conflict her master wishes for. When Brian manages to best Mammon, Shannon shows her intrigue in humanity's strength and chooses to abandon her demonic origins and travel the world in search of the meaning of emotion.
Actions and personality?
She's the ultimate player in the Gambit Pileup of villains behind villains behind villains working to revive her master and contrasts her very flat boss as the prime manipulator, luring Brian to him and using the other baddies to her own ends.
Mitigating factors?
Nope, plays everyone and when her plans fail pulls a Heel–Face Turn with full respect and grace.
Verdict?
Simple keeper.
Mark, Sellers, Prof, Wilhelm, and Shannon.
- Star Wars (Marvel 2015) annual #1 & issues #16-19—"Rebel Jail" arc: Eneb Ray was once Leia's most accomplished spy, willing to do whatever it took to rise up the Imperial bureaucracy and tear down Palpatine's tyranny. After being outwitted and just barely killed in a masterful trap designed by the Emperor's own hand, Eneb comes to respect his monstrous yet brilliant mind and concludes that the Rebellion must adopt a similar ruthless approach to stand any chance of winning. Faking his death, Eneb leads his forces on a siege of a Rebel prison, masterfully taking control of the station when Leia comes to deliver Dr. Aphra as its newest inmate. Eneb traps the princess with the vile prisoners in an effort to have her develop the hardened killer mindset he believes is needed to lead the Rebellion, executing all the Imperials himself when Leia refuses and taking Han and Luke hostage in a last endeavor to force her to kill Aphra. Though ultimately failing to convert Leia to his approach, Eneb remains confident they will need his methods down the line, and exits the series initiating his escape from Rebel custody.
Also, I was thinking of moving Dr. Aphra's entry to the top of the comics folder, seeing how she has numerous major appearances in various other runs.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Aug 12th 2023 at 5:43:16 AM
Has anyone ever brought up Henry Adams from Batman: Arkham Knight? I think he may be worth an EP.
Ok, this one is utterly bizarre but please hear me out.
Whats the work?
The Roundtable of Black Airforce Activity is the main set of videos released by CJ Dachamp. While most of the characters are still the exact same, just talking like they are from the hood, one character is changed enough to be a MB in my opinion.
Who is he? What has he done?
Kid Buu is the head and CEO of Black Airforce Incorporated and the is head of the Roundtable. It should immediately be said that even though the Buu video featured all of the Buu forms, they are still shown as separate characters and this proposal is only for Kid Buu, as I do not think the others count. Anyway, this version of Buu is actually capable of understanding speech and his grunts are him speaking but no one understands what he is saying. He still goes through the events of Z, showing up and asserting dominance over the remaining cast before easily blowing up the planet, breaking into heaven to beat the dead fighters, and then beating Goku and Vegeta before dying to the spirt bomb. Despite having his soup cleansed he somehow came back to run BAF 1 Inc.
Is he Magnificent?
So for this idea to even be entertained one thing needs to be made clear- in these videos a healthy amount of evil is cool is applied to any actions that involve disrespecting your foes and violence in general. This is not just bad is good and good is bad though, as things like the entire Eclipse(Berserk) and attacking someones mother arsenal just seen as plain wrong, showing there are standards. Anyway he-
Easily blew up the Earth as soon as he appeared, being the only Dragon Ball villain to do so without being a bitch
After getting bored from blowing up planets he broke into heaven to beat the fighters who were already dead, an act that cemented him as the biggest menace in anime history
He went to the Land of the Kais and beat Goku, Vegeta, and the good version of himself with little effort, taunting them and outright sitting on Fat Buu to take a break as they were that weak compared to him
Despite having the energy from the entire Earth in it Kid Buu was still pushing back the spirt bomb and only lost when Goku had all of his own energy restored, which is outright called the plot kicking in.
Somehow was able to return from the Spirt Bomb (the Escanor video implies that when a character dies they just ascend to the Round table) and was the head of that Round Table, recruiting Madara Uchiha as his Vice President. He also seems to hold no animosity to Vegeta for the role he played in is death, as he let the Prince on the Round Table.
Like I said earlier this version of Kid Buu is shown to be much more intelligent than the original, being able to understand speech(shown when he responded to Vegeta saying he better not try to blow up the Earth again) and is capable of speech himself though no one seems to understand him. Basically, he is much more than a mindless killing machine here.
Is he a Bastard?
Yes. Do not think I have to explain how Kid Buu is a bastard, but he killed many people and destroyed many planets.
Closing Thoughts
Though I would not be surprised if he is rejected I genuinely believe he counts due to the copious amounts of Evil is Cool that is applied to the villains actions in the series. I mean, we have C Ms as M Bs, so he is a
for me.
