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Complete Monster Proposal Thread

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here

Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.

Here is how the process works:

    Process 

  1. If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.

  2. After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".

  3. Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!

Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:

    Ground Rules 

  1. To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!

  2. No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
    1. Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
    2. Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
    3. Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.

  3. Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.

  4. Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").

  5. If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.

  6. 'If a work is already reserved by another user , please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!

  7. Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.

  8. Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.

  9. If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
    1. For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
    2. If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.

  10. Please keep all discussions "in-house".
    1. What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
    2. Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
    3. Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.

If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:

    Effortpost Template 

What is the work?

This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.

Who is the candidate and what have they done?

This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.

Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?

This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.

Are they bad enough?

A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:

  • Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
  • The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
  • The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)

Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.

Final verdict?

This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.

And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:13:36 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#45626: May 31st 2024 at 4:40:32 PM

Is there enough of Simon to establish a pattern? Do we even see enough? Like, a photo of the corpse or something?

For Xemnu, should it be added to the Journey into Mystery tree as well as the Hulk page?

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#45627: May 31st 2024 at 4:41:30 PM

[tup] to Simon

[up][up]I think we're good with just the Hulk page

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#45628: May 31st 2024 at 4:43:18 PM

If just the Hulk page, then let's just do the Immortal YMMV page. Everything starting with "Xemnu returns as Dario Agger's right hand..." is from Immortal, right?

Edited by ACW on May 31st 2024 at 7:43:52 AM

MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#45629: May 31st 2024 at 4:43:26 PM

[up][up][up] The whole subplot revolves around his actions and the fact one of the victims families is after him, and we get the name and face of one of the child he murdered

Edited by MermaidEyes15 on May 31st 2024 at 7:43:33 AM

Starkrafty Since: Sep, 2017
#45630: May 31st 2024 at 4:43:54 PM

Just toss Xemnu under Immortal Hulk's YMMV page and keep him under The Incredible Hulk.

I'll juuuuust lean yes to Simon.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#45631: May 31st 2024 at 4:44:14 PM

I...guess that's probably enough.

AmateurStorytime Just a starting content creator from Home Since: Mar, 2024
Just a starting content creator
#45632: May 31st 2024 at 4:52:41 PM

I'm personally a no for Simon. Too much offscreen villainy, and I don't really think he's heinous enoug for the setting. I personally think Dari Ludum does worse, but again it's all offscreen.

Check out my YouTube channel! I make audiobooks and whatever else I feel like!
MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#45633: May 31st 2024 at 4:53:47 PM

[up] Again, I wouldn’t say it’s offscreen villainy (I do wanna discuss Dari at a later date), Simon is a simple guy and has a whole subplot hinging on his crimes and one of the victims families coming after him. Considering the nature of the work and how faceless the other antagonists, who range from fairly generic terrorists, the overarching oppressive government and the more anti heroic revolutionaries, are through the story i feel like it helps him stand out as a more vile

Edited by MermaidEyes15 on May 31st 2024 at 7:54:54 AM

AmateurStorytime Just a starting content creator from Home Since: Mar, 2024
Just a starting content creator
#45634: May 31st 2024 at 4:57:14 PM

With respect, I personally don't think it's enough, but that's just my take. I'll make no objections if he gets approved.

Check out my YouTube channel! I make audiobooks and whatever else I feel like!
MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#45635: May 31st 2024 at 4:58:07 PM

[up] ofc! Just giving my argument! ^^

Edited by MermaidEyes15 on May 31st 2024 at 7:58:13 AM

TheGrayFox ....Phenomenal from A Lovecraftian fishing village Since: Sep, 2011
....Phenomenal
#45636: May 31st 2024 at 5:03:26 PM

Given Papers Please's minimalist style of storytelling, I think Simon's enough. If it were a more "conventional" narrative that actually explored the world outside the booth he might not scrape by, but as it is? He's about as "onscreen" as the presentation allows, so I'm good with him. [tup].

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#45637: May 31st 2024 at 5:05:04 PM

Eh, sure to Simon, for a game where you spend literally the entire game inside a booth the game put in the effort to show us he has multiple victims with what it has

Edited by Agentofchaos on May 31st 2024 at 7:06:07 AM

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
Malginel Since: Aug, 2023
#45638: May 31st 2024 at 5:23:41 PM

Just barely [tup] to Simon

Dari Ludlum I think is a better candidate, as his crimes are given more evidence, and has more bits of characterization than Simon.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#45639: May 31st 2024 at 5:29:54 PM

I'm honestly leaning [tdown] right now if we're apparently getting someone soon from the same game who does worse and more evidence on screen.

Edited by LoreDeluxe on May 31st 2024 at 5:30:07 AM

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#45640: May 31st 2024 at 5:38:58 PM

And here’s another potential one. Less sure of this but he may count

Who is Dari Ludum? What Does He Do?

  • The proprietor of the Pink Vice Brothel, which you get various fliers from multiple sex workers, Dari is the mastermind of a Human Trafficking operation, where he steals the passports of immigrants to make them work at his brothel.
  • The Inspector is met by a woman who gives him a note that says that Dari is trying to traffic her and her sister and begs for help. Later we meet with Dari who tries to enter. If we give Dari the note, he angrily exclaims his intention to break her in two.
    • If The Inspector let’s him pass, a news report reveals the fact he murdered some of his prostitutes, very likely including the woman and her sister.
    • If the Inspector detains him, Dari is arrested and his operation is exposed.

Mitigating Factors?

Is a Bad Boss who drops his cheerful facade to become a volatile man, nothing here.

Heinous Standard ?

A little less sure on this one but again, I think he hits it enough given the story. He runs a human trafficking ring where we see a few victims, including the woman who tells that she and her sister gonna be trafficked and can possible kill some when learning of her attempts to expose him.

And I think him and Simon are fine separately. Dari is a human trafficker and Simon is a serial child murderer while simply being a ex convict with bare resources while Dari runs his own business. So I think both have the leg room to stand on.

Verdict ?

Less sure on him but I think maybe.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
AmateurStorytime Just a starting content creator from Home Since: Mar, 2024
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#45643: May 31st 2024 at 5:54:13 PM

I’m going against the grain here - yes to Simon but no to Dari. Simon’s crimes have an entire mini-arc attached to them where one of his victim’s father comes and gives you a picture of the victim, and the father is another character that you can let in so he can kill the bastard. That’s about as much emotional weight as can possibly be attached to a game like this. Dari suffers from the minimalist storytelling that makes it really hard for his crimes to have any weight (he’s a human trafficker with two onscreen victims who can potentially kill someone, that’s basically all we get. We’re barely given any details about what actually happens to the victims, and that’s if we get one at all cause it’s been a minute since I played it).

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 31st 2024 at 9:05:18 AM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#45644: May 31st 2024 at 5:55:55 PM

It seems like Dari is given more weight to a larger number of victims. I'll more safely give him a [tup], but maintain a [tdown] to Simon.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#45645: May 31st 2024 at 8:27:46 PM

From what I've seen and read I'm leaning towards STAR's line of thinking. Simon we get an onscreen photo of a victim, a grieving father out to avenge his lost kid, newspaper articles explicitly spelling Simon out as a repeated child murderer...Dari's human trafficking just seems a bit too vague for me to say he counts, let alone is "worse" than Simon, personally.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#45646: May 31st 2024 at 8:42:08 PM

I actually think I'm going to change my vote to formally abstain on both. I don't really care for the methodology on how these crimes are presented. Even given the medium, I think things are a bit too overall off screen for me. I personally want to see a body at least to make a pattern.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#45647: May 31st 2024 at 8:47:49 PM

[up][up] To be fair to Dari, we get some evidence as well: We see two of the sex workers offering their services, the woman herself who is being trafficked with her sister and news reports which reveal that sex workers has been killed and/or Dari leading a trafficking ring.

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#45648: May 31st 2024 at 8:49:28 PM

[tup] Simon

[tdown] Dari

It's Spooky Month!
carduinal-cyn Quasi-official Pretty Cure Entry Pimp from Toboe Shrine (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Quasi-official Pretty Cure Entry Pimp
#45649: May 31st 2024 at 9:42:06 PM

Any more votes on the bake-danuki? I have 9 [tup], 3 [tdown], and 3 abstains.

I'm heading to bed, but I'll add any new votes to my tally when I wake up. :)

"I would never consider YOU a waste of personnel." — Kawarino
TurlesTheVegan Xykon from The Darkest Pit of the Underworld Since: Dec, 2023 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Xykon
#45650: May 31st 2024 at 10:00:43 PM

I'm abstaining on Dari, while there is some amount of evidence for his crimes it's not as explicit and overall less detail is given than Simon's crimes for me to be comfy upvoting him.

Power, it isn't something that you put on or take off like a jacket. It's just something you are.

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