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Complete Monster Proposal Thread

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here

Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.

Here is how the process works:

    Process 

  1. If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.

  2. After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".

  3. Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!

Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:

    Ground Rules 

  1. To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!

  2. No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
    1. Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
    2. Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
    3. Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.

  3. Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.

  4. Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").

  5. If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.

  6. 'If a work is already reserved by another user , please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!

  7. Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.

  8. Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.

  9. If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
    1. For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
    2. If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.

  10. Please keep all discussions "in-house".
    1. What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
    2. Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
    3. Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.

If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:

    Effortpost Template 

What is the work?

This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.

Who is the candidate and what have they done?

This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.

Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?

This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.

Are they bad enough?

A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:

  • Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
  • The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
  • The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)

Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.

Final verdict?

This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.

And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:13:36 PM

Braz Luz Stan from Boiling Isles (Apprentice) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Luz Stan
#4176: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:21:54 PM

[tup] to Love and Cross.

Us tropers stick together.
Fireball246 Since: Jan, 2023
#4177: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:25:47 PM

Does the Sailor Moon franchise have enough CM's for a page now or does it still need more?

Edited by Fireball246 on Feb 11th 2023 at 6:26:11 AM

Fireball246 Since: Jan, 2023
#4178: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:30:50 PM

Can we propose English Dubbed versions of anime characters on this list? Because I think Paragus from the Funimation dub of DBZ: Broly The Legendary Super Saiyan is a rock-solid keeper. He eventually loses the genuine love and care for his son, Broly, and leaves him to die on the planet by the Comet Camori and states that Broly is now nothing to him unlike the original Japanese dub where he regretted leaving Broly to die.

Edited by Fireball246 on Feb 11th 2023 at 6:31:28 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#4179: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:34:43 PM

Any chance we could give Russ Cargill from The Simpsons movie, another look? The film takes a FAR darker turn whenever he's involved, he tries to nuke Springfield which would be a death toll in at least the thousands, the only thing I could think of that might disqualify him is the fact Homer and Bart crack a joke at him, but given we've upvoted characters who had a small joke at their expense I don't see how Cargill is any different. He's the most chilling thing about the movie and unlike Cecil or Bob Terwilliger NOTHING besides the moment I stated is played for laughs about him. He's awful, he's pretty competent, and he's a sociopath that's far worse than anyone in Springfield. Anyone willing to give him another shot? Before anyone gives the WIE argument about him, he's killing an entire town for Homer's idiocy. I'd say that's more than enough to not be a Well-Intentioned Extremist.

Edited by Klavice on Feb 11th 2023 at 6:39:22 AM

Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#4180: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:37:16 PM

[up][up] Go right ahead, though people will likely argue that the fact that he even expressed genuine care and love for his son in the first place disqualifies him.

Edited by Arawn999 on Feb 11th 2023 at 6:37:32 AM

SumDumNerd LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED from [REDACTED] Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED
#4181: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:40:10 PM

[tup] Zhardan

Going to reserve Winnie-the-Pooh: Blood and Honey, since I'm going to see it with some friends when it premiers this week.

Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation here
Echidna from Ontario, Canada (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Two-timing
#4182: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:41:00 PM

[up][up][up] Uhhh no. I am against Russ actually being a CM. He is not played seriously when I saw the film. Even for his crimes on blowing up Springfield I feel that's not enough to detract his comedic moments if you ask me

Edited by Echidna on Feb 11th 2023 at 9:42:11 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#4183: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:44:34 PM

Fair enough. I have some disagreements on approved examples myself like Maltravers the whaler from that Animated Titanic movie. He's too silly.

Edited by Klavice on Feb 11th 2023 at 6:53:11 AM

Fireball246 Since: Jan, 2023
#4184: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:45:00 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Yeah I'm sorry, but........... no. The day a show like The Simpsons gets a CM is the day pigs fly.

Edited by Fireball246 on Feb 11th 2023 at 6:45:17 AM

SailorVenus372 Since: Nov, 2019 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#4185: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:49:39 PM

[up] Kaguya will be her fifth CM. So not enough for Sailor Moon.

Get Snuck-Up On.”
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#4186: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:49:41 PM

I wouldn't say it's as unthinkable as South Park or Family Guy, I mean we approved someone from My Little Pony for Gods sake! We need a rule then what constitutes as too ridiculous. Being perfectly honest though, honestly don't think Cosmo from MLP is taken seriously or even being the one behind Discord's crimes is enough to keep her enough even IN SPITE of being a Knight of Cerebus having read the comic.

Edited by Klavice on Feb 11th 2023 at 6:51:51 AM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#4187: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:55:58 PM

Yes to Zlego and Cross.

I feel like some of the Treehouse of Horror episodes have segments that played for genuine horror enough to be worth looking into to. Just off the top of my head, there's that one segment where Skinner coerces the other teachers to butchering and eating all the children at the school. There wasn't that much Black Comedy to that segment that I can recall. The whole thing was meant to be frightening. I know there was a very heated discussion on characters being played for laughs, but I do think some of those segments might be worth looking into.

Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 11th 2023 at 7:00:39 AM

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#4188: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:56:28 PM

[up][up] I'm not against The Simpson's tone being conductive enough for a CM (espescially compared to Family Guy and South Park where the protagonists themselves ruin the heinous standard along with them running on bleak humour.) As for Cosmos, I remember someone tried to pitch an image of her where she literally ignites an orphanage on fire for giggles and it's not played as a joke?

Oh and [tup] Zlego and Cross

Edited by WetFlannels on Feb 11th 2023 at 2:57:47 PM

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#4189: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:58:51 PM

[up]Yeah that's probably enough. Igniting an orphanage. Zlego and Cross get a yes from me.

[up][up]Except with those Skinner's portrayal in Treehouse of Horror is VERY inconsistent. He's only that vicious in that one segment and it IS played for Black Comedy I hate to say it. The whole "There's a little Uter in all of us!" There's no way that wasn't meant to be chuckled at even darkly. If we're talking characters that meet the HS and are serious enough, they'd likely have to be a one shot.

Edited by Klavice on Feb 11th 2023 at 7:02:44 AM

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#4190: Feb 11th 2023 at 7:14:51 PM

Yeah, can't say I agree with Russ counting at all. I remember watching the Simpsons Movie ALOT when I was younger and definitely remember Russ being Played for Laughs. That, and the chances of the Simpsons getting an CM is about as likely as Sega finally making a Billy Hatcher sequel or remake. (It would be cool if they did though cause BILLY HATCHER DESERVES MORE ATTENTION, DAMN IT!!!!!!)

Fireball246 Since: Jan, 2023
#4191: Feb 11th 2023 at 7:19:34 PM

Alright, here goes nothing:

  • What is the work?

Dragon Ball Z: Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan is the eighth DBZ movie that was released in 1993. Now interestingly, I will be looking at the English version of our candidate because the original Japanese one has one big mitigating factor that disqualifies him.

  • Who is Paragus? What has he done?

Paragus is the Saiyan father of Broly, the aforementioned Legendary Super Saiyan. Paragus in the past used to be nothing more than a mere low-class Saiyan warrior who served under King Vegeta until he and his son, Broly, were banished from Planet Vegeta due to Broly's extremely high power level of 10,000 despite being a mere baby at the time. After being banished, he is eventually saved by his son, Broly, from the destruction of Planet Vegeta.

After a long time of trying to control and restrain his mentally unstable son, Paragus eventually used a mind-controlled device to control Broly and his violent and psychotic behavior. Paragus eventually decided to use this newfound control over Broly by making him flat out destroy the entirety of the South Galaxy, killing billions of people.

Later, Paragus eventually formed an army of his own and enslaved the entire Shamoian race to do slave labor on a new planet he found and called "New Vegeta" and went to Earth to retrieve the son of King Vegeta, Vegeta himself, to the new planet, "New Vegeta".

After returning to "New Vegeta", Paragus pretends and manipulates Goku, Vegeta, and their allies into believing that he is a nice guy just trying to make a new home for the Saiyans and rebuild a new Saiyan empire. During which, he plans on leaving Goku, Vegeta, and their allies as well as his minions and the Shamoians to die by the cataclysmic Comet Camori that is headed to crash into and destroy "New Vegeta". One of his minions, Moah, being unaware of his plans and being worried over the Comet coming closer to “New Vegeta” is promptly killed by Paragus.

Later when he reveals his true motives and plans to Goku, Vegeta, and Future Trunks, Broly breaks free of his control and becomes the Legendary Super Saiyan and goes on a rampage which Paragus freely allows.

When the Comet Camori is nearly about to hit "New Vegeta", Paragus attempts to flee and even leaves Broly to die, claiming that his son now means nothing to him right before his son kills him before he can do so.

  • Freudian Excuse? Mitigating Factors?

Now, here's the deal alright? Paragus in the original Japanese dub genuinely loved and cared for his son, Broly, and even when he attempted to leave Broly to die along with the entirety of "New Vegeta", he stated how much he regrets doing so, however in the Funimation English Dub, while Paragus does keep his genuine love and care for Broly for the majority of the film like the original Japanese version, he eventually loses said love and care for his son by the very end as he claims that his son now meant nothing to him showing that he no longer loved or cared for Broly.

Now one could argue that his unfair banishment from Planet Vegeta in the past was tragic, but by the time of his villainy, it is quite clear that this banishment is not at all an excuse for the awful and heinous crimes that he commits in the present.

  • Heinous Standard

Oh boy, the big one. Here we go, ladies and gentlemen. Now as we all know, the Dragon Ball franchise has a MASSIVE heinous standard where we eventually decided that in order for a villain in the franchise to even remotely stand out is for them to destroy at LEAST one whole PLANET.

Now, with that being said, Paragus passes by with flying colors from the mere fact that he controlled Broly to destroy an entire fucking GALAXY in just the first FIVE SECONDS OF THE MOVIE. Yeah, needless to say, I think he's heinous enough.

  • Final Verdict

Absolute [tup] to the English version of DBZ Paragus to me I’d say.

Edited by Fireball246 on Feb 15th 2023 at 12:49:34 PM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#4192: Feb 11th 2023 at 7:22:51 PM

Nobody from The Simpsons, IMO, is gonna qualify. Even the Treehouse segments are Played for Laughs in a black comedy way ("I'm going to enjoy devouring you, Bart Simpson. Yes, I believe I'll start as you've so often suggested, by eating your shorts!").

Echidna from Ontario, Canada (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Two-timing
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#4194: Feb 11th 2023 at 7:35:57 PM

[tup] to Paragus, Lou, Cross and Zlego Zhardan

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#4195: Feb 11th 2023 at 8:01:02 PM

Oh yeah I've felt Paragus kept for a while and meant to get to him. Easy [tup] to him there.

And yes, as someone who loves the film and has rewatcheda few times. Russ is easily heinous enough and a bit darker then the usual Simpsons fair. But he's too comedic.

Edited by Snoketrope on Feb 11th 2023 at 8:03:00 AM

Bow to the Prototype
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#4196: Feb 11th 2023 at 8:09:36 PM

Yeah, tone is still an issue even with Cargill being a villain who raises the stakes. It's why the Ringleader from Geppetto which I was watching for the first time in years doesn't count: the movie downplays the horrors of what he's doing and because of Usher's charisma in the role, he comes off as too affable. Cargill doesn't really establish himself as dark and evil enough beyond the tone, unlike say "Big" Jack Horner.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 11th 2023 at 8:24:34 AM

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#4197: Feb 11th 2023 at 8:18:02 PM

I'm a cautious [tdown] for Paragus. While one could make the case he stopped loving Broly, it's not because he threw away his humanity and is incapable of loving. It's because he became disillusioned with Broly specifically. That along with his tragic past just makes it very murky on how sympathetic Paragus is supposed to be, IMO.

Late tentative [tup] to Bibidi. Heinousness isn't the issue with him, it's if there's enough characterisation. I think the anime flashbacks have him just scraping by in that regard.

Edited by Snowy66 on Feb 11th 2023 at 8:46:22 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#4198: Feb 11th 2023 at 8:43:33 PM

[tdown] Paragus

[tup] Bibidi

Uh,there is a new official Digimon webnovel series with weekly publication aimed to older readers named Digimon Seekers that has been announced to start in April 3th. I can reserve it?

Edited by KazuyaProta on Feb 11th 2023 at 11:44:23 AM

Watch me destroying my country
Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#4199: Feb 11th 2023 at 8:48:19 PM

[tup] English dub Paragus. Given that he brainwashed Broly and mind-controlled him to commit mass genocide... that doesn't exactly strike me as the actions of a loving father.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities

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