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Complete Monster Proposal Thread

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here

Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.

Here is how the process works:

    Process 

  1. If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.

  2. After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".

  3. Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!

Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:

    Ground Rules 

  1. To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!

  2. No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
    1. Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
    2. Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
    3. Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.

  3. Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.

  4. Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").

  5. If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.

  6. 'If a work is already reserved by another user , please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!

  7. Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.

  8. Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.

  9. If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
    1. For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
    2. If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.

  10. Please keep all discussions "in-house".
    1. What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
    2. Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
    3. Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.

If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:

    Effortpost Template 

What is the work?

This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.

Who is the candidate and what have they done?

This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.

Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?

This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.

Are they bad enough?

A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:

  • Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
  • The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
  • The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)

Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.

Final verdict?

This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.

And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:13:36 PM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#39276: Mar 14th 2024 at 11:45:17 AM

Abstaining on Creed, and honestly I don't think we should allow characters to be proposed if the purpose of their existence is representing the author's shitty views.

Just gonna leave a reminder here that I once did an EP for a villain from a book that was written by an author who is an atheist and has openly admitted a chunk of her motivation for writing said book was to strike back at Christianity due to the negative experiences she had when she was younger. And the CM in question just so happens to be a hypocritical Christian who instigated the entire plot in a contrived attempt to convert more people to become Christians. Nobody in this forum said a thing about this or had any problems with it.

It's...weird when this happens. Because we've done EPs about movies/games/books that were developed or created by controversial figures, but for the most part, not many people mind. But whenever it comes to "certain" creators, most of the people in the forum don't wanna touch it. I'm not saying you're wrong for feeling that way, but objectively speaking, this feels like a Double Standard.

Now all that being said, there is still the question of whether Creed breaches the heinous standard for the series as a whole, alongside whether or not his Freudian Excuse holds up or not. Those are the two factors I'm concerned with right now.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#39277: Mar 14th 2024 at 11:48:53 AM

If you’re going to say that people aren’t in the wrong for feeling that way, the point is undermined when you call it a Double Standard. Either way, people have a right to abstain if they don’t want to deal with it so I don’t know why this is being discussed so in depth - just vote and move on, and let people vote and move on please.

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#39278: Mar 14th 2024 at 11:49:30 AM

Just gonna say I honestly agree with Nox. It's difficult to upvote a candidate when said candidate is basically an Author Tract of the writer's transphobia.

And as for Becky, I don't know about her. The fact she speaks to a decapitated head makes me think she's too insane to count.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#39279: Mar 14th 2024 at 11:51:28 AM

I back up that view. Is it Double Standard? Sure. But people are entitled to vote and abstain based on their values. That’s why feel free to propose him but let people freely abstain. Especially that as I made research on this book… it does sound like transphobic porn. I retain my upvote for Creed but still.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#39280: Mar 14th 2024 at 11:53:43 AM

Honestly, while people shouldn't vote NO for that reason, abstaining's fine. I think people should be able to abstain for whatever reason they want.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#39281: Mar 14th 2024 at 11:55:48 AM

I thought the cross dressing thing was a Red Herring in the book? Granted don't intend on reading it but could have sworn it was not a central point in the narrative.

But I'll abstain mostly for heinousness concerns.

Edited by AustinDR on Mar 14th 2024 at 11:56:31 AM

ForgoLight The Ultimate Lifeform Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
The Ultimate Lifeform
#39282: Mar 14th 2024 at 11:57:18 AM

Okay, I initially missed the candidate and discussion, but now that I have seen it, I am a hard [tdown]. They're a bigoted caricature by a bigoted author meant to inspire hate and fear. Giving them anything approaching this title feels like it would be rewarding that. Not to mention the heinousness concerns.

Edited by ForgoLight on Mar 14th 2024 at 11:57:44 AM

"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#39283: Mar 14th 2024 at 11:59:24 AM

Pending:

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#39284: Mar 14th 2024 at 11:59:46 AM

[tup]Creed. Tyk5919 has a good point. Also plenty of candidates have had horrible backstories before but still qualify. Also yes to Harkonnen, always a CM wherever he appears.

Edited by PhiSat on Mar 14th 2024 at 1:03:28 PM

Oissu!
Starkrafty Since: Sep, 2017
#39285: Mar 14th 2024 at 12:02:12 PM

Yes to Harkonnen, and likewise I'm just going to abstain on Dennis and leave it at that.

No to Becky, though. Short film or not, only half-a-dozen victims is really middling for the horror standard.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#39286: Mar 14th 2024 at 12:05:07 PM

I maintaining my [tup] for Creed as the proposer has sufficiently answered the heinousness and FE concerns to me. Objectively, Creed seems a solid keeper.

Leaning [tdown] to Becky given arguments.

Edited by LoreDeluxe on Mar 14th 2024 at 12:07:37 PM

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#39287: Mar 14th 2024 at 12:06:54 PM

Becky...ehhhhh, I'm a bit iffy on her too due to how sane she may or may not be.

Also [tup] for Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. Missed that one.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#39288: Mar 14th 2024 at 12:23:55 PM

Aye to the Baron, nay to Becky for the sanity concerns. I forget, what was the ultimate decision regarding genre standards that came with the Sykes/Scroop discussions? Was that ever actually resolved, or tabled for later?

Not touching Rowling stuff.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#39289: Mar 14th 2024 at 12:26:33 PM

How bad are the other villains in the series compared to Creed?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#39290: Mar 14th 2024 at 12:27:39 PM

Yes to the Baron.

No to Becky.

Abstain on Creed.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#39291: Mar 14th 2024 at 12:29:14 PM

[tdown] Becky

[up][up][up] I think decision was that we loosen baseline on children’s works only. Hence Scroop and Sykes being aproved.

Edited by EmperorGeode on Mar 14th 2024 at 12:29:52 PM

Starkrafty Since: Sep, 2017
#39292: Mar 14th 2024 at 12:49:48 PM

There was no change to the baseline rules. It was just ruled that in a few select instances it was being misapplied. Every other rule regarding the idea of baseline heinousness still applies.

Even if we think she's sane enough—which after watching the short I doubt—the long and short of her rapsheet is that she's a serial killer with five victims. My response: so? What's exceptional for the genre here?

Edited by Starkrafty on Mar 14th 2024 at 1:51:41 PM

fanman "To watch it all burn." from Earth-Prime/Earth-1218 Since: Feb, 2022 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
"To watch it all burn."
#39293: Mar 14th 2024 at 1:02:08 PM

That's fair.

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#39294: Mar 14th 2024 at 1:10:04 PM

I am giving a [tup] to Dennis Creed. A keeper is a keeper no matter the messages of the book, plus, from what I read from the EP, it doesn't sound like Creed specifically is meant to represent a transphobic caricature because he is not even transgender.

[down] That part wasn't mentioned in the EP, so I wasn't aware that he is a trans person. I thought he was just a man who rapes and kills women. I am still maintaining my [tup] though.

Edited by WatTambor on Mar 14th 2024 at 11:43:24 AM

ForgoLight The Ultimate Lifeform Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
The Ultimate Lifeform
#39295: Mar 14th 2024 at 1:37:27 PM

[up]Uhhh he absolutely is. Because that's how bigots like Rowling see Trans people. They see them as nothing more than crossdressers at best who are deluding themselves into thinking they are a different gender from their assigned gender. Hence the transphobic caricature.

"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
Starkrafty Since: Sep, 2017
#39296: Mar 14th 2024 at 1:53:37 PM

Okay, I got kind of a weird post for League of Legends. A while ago Ravok got two earier iterations of Warwick—a character who is currently a Tragic Monster at his worst—up for CM, before the lore for the character was radically changed. But those lore changes didn't just affect Warwick...

What has OG!Singed, the Mad Chemist, done?

  • In the old days of League of Legends lore, Singed Singed was the apprentice of the cruel master apothecary Warwick (a version of the character who doesn't remotely resemble his current incarnation; this particular iteration of Warwick is already listed as a CM). A budding Mad Scientist from Zaun, Singed gleefully aided his master Warwick in the Noxian assault on Ionia, and took to perfecting his horrific toxins (among them such delights as the "Insanity Potion") on innumerable innocent victims. Whenever he was in short supply of victims, Singed used himself, resulting in his scarred and mutilated appearance.
  • When Warwick was transformed into a werewolf by Soraka, Singed gleefully went from "workhorse to innovator," taking Warwick's place as Noxus' chief chemist, and he helped escalate the war against Ionia into an all-out campaign of extermination. Singed in particular launched horrific biochemical attacks on Ionia that killed just as many Noxians as it did Ionians. And not just soldiers, either; entire villages full of innocent people died unspeakably horrible deaths to Singed's toxins. This horror factored into the backstory of multiple other Champions, such as Riven's entire unit, or Master Yi's home village.
  • After the League of Legends is established and brings an uneasy peace between the nations of Runeterra, Singed moves onto the Ministry of War, where he partakes in lovely endeavors such as being employed for pest extermination—which Singed fulfills by dousing entire streets with horrible, caustic pesticides that melt entire houses and prove even worse than the infestations themselves.
Any mitigating factors?
  • I think we can get Singed up on the same basis that we got Warwick's two earlier reworks up, on account of the fact that Singed's lore in the older versions of LoL is simply incompatible with the current lore of LoL (regardless of whether or not you choose to accept Arcane—which gives Singed unambiguous redeeming qualities—as canon). On that basis, I think Singed is an easy, if somewhat messy, keeper due to his weird place in continuity. It's not necessarily that he was reworked top-to-bottom like Warwick himself (or other characters like Evelynn), but the backstory he had in the old lore and the backstory he has now are so radically different that there's no other option but to treat them as distinctly separate iterations of the same character.
Heinous standard?
  • This is no question. Singed has a body count of thousands and he's the premiere Mad Scientist in the canon.

Edited by Starkrafty on Mar 14th 2024 at 2:57:51 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#39297: Mar 14th 2024 at 1:57:06 PM

Easy yes to OG lore!Singed, great work, bud!

It's the right of anyone to partake or not in whatever discussion they see fit, and I myself will not be partaking in the Creed discussion for reasons already elaborated upon. Abstaining.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#39298: Mar 14th 2024 at 1:58:25 PM

[tup]Old Singed.

Oissu!
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#39300: Mar 14th 2024 at 2:00:40 PM

Hey guys, I just got back from a lot of work today and would like to have a nice, peaceful conversation with all the good people at this wik…

Ohhhh

I’m… going to stay out of this for now [tup] to Singed and I will be hiding in my bomb shelter with a year supply of marshmallows for now.


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