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Complete Monster Proposal Thread

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here

Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.

Here is how the process works:

    Process 

  1. If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.

  2. After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".

  3. Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!

Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:

    Ground Rules 

  1. To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!

  2. No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
    1. Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
    2. Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
    3. Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.

  3. Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.

  4. Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").

  5. If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.

  6. 'If a work is already reserved by another user , please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!

  7. Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.

  8. Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.

  9. If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
    1. For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
    2. If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.

  10. Please keep all discussions "in-house".
    1. What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
    2. Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
    3. Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.

If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:

    Effortpost Template 

What is the work?

This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.

Who is the candidate and what have they done?

This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.

Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?

This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.

Are they bad enough?

A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:

  • Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
  • The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
  • The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)

Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.

Final verdict?

This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.

And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:13:36 PM

jlvs200s from The Netherlands (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I miss my wife, Tails
#34726: Jan 12th 2024 at 9:36:31 AM

[tup] Murgrim and Ego

"The time has come for every last Shoppe... No! The time has come for the DREAM KINGDOM to bow down to me! Gotcha ! Hee-hee!" | He/Him
NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#34728: Jan 12th 2024 at 9:48:57 AM

Abstain on Dr. Death. Too much vaguness for me.

[tup] for the fittingly named Cadaver and Murgrim the Cruel.

[tup] for Ego.

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#34731: Jan 12th 2024 at 11:19:45 AM

Yes to Ego - who might be even worse than in the Sacred Timeline. Also, ACW, have you seen the show? Cause Zola beating Ultron isn't "lame."

Yes also to Murgrim.

Oh yeah, I've decided not to do the write up for Kordax anymore. I just don't feel him anymore - I offered it to Forgolight, but they haven't got back to me yet. If Forgolight doesn't claim it, consider it up for grabs.

ForgoLight The Ultimate Lifeform Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
The Ultimate Lifeform
#34732: Jan 12th 2024 at 11:21:25 AM

[up]Oh uhhh, sorry, I didn't see that message! I'll be back with one later today!

"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#34734: Jan 12th 2024 at 11:22:36 AM

[tup] Ego, nice job there Mir! I'll get my candidate out tomorrow since I'm not at work that day.

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#34735: Jan 12th 2024 at 11:27:02 AM

What is the work?

Ventrobi: The Paradox Zone short Star Wars: The Clone Wars Fanfic written by lordhadrian. Mysterius Force drain across the galaxy threathens all Force users, with all clues pointing to Rakata Prime, homeworld of long gona Rakata Infinite Empire. Jedi, Sith and Witches of Dathomir venture to planet to find a source of danger, latter two also plotting to use it against their enemies. Anakin, Obi Wan and Asajj Ventress are forced to work together and gets thought traps in Rakata temple, causing Obi Wan and Asajj to grow close.

And one behind the drain.

Who is Pong Krell and what has he done here?

For those not familiar, Pong Krell was tracherus Jedi general with tandency to send many clone tropers to their death, planning to evetually defect to Separatists by leaking sensitive info that would help them strick cripling blow against the Republic. Evetually he was found out during the battle of Umbara and killed by Clones.

In this fic however, he somehow cake back from death and found his way to Rakata Prime. Finding the ancient temple, Krell causes Force drain across the galaxy, slowly sipping the life force of all Force users in order to become immortal and rule the galaxy. As Anakin, Obi Wan and Asajj Ventress come to Rakata Prime to investigate threath to Force sensitives, Krell makes contact with them and mocks them.

As trio passes traps and come to tomb of Kindama, first Rakata to master the Force. They are forced to battle arachnid beast as Pong Krell reveals he used them to get throught traps and takes Kindama’s ring from his statue to start ritual, Kindama’s ghost asking him if he really wants. Krell of course affrims it and Kindama delivers, by condeming him to be one of many souls cursed to forever reside Rakata tombs, fate of anybody who seeks immortality.

Reddeming qualities.

Same smug power hungry traitor from canon. While short fic does have plot with Obi Wan’s and Asajj’s developing relathioship and trio venturing into temple.

Heinous standard?

All his crimes from canon, plus slowly draining life from all Force users in galaxy. Sequel has Mother Talzin attempt to use Obi Wan and Asajj’s unborn daugther as a vessel to come back to life and vague plans to rule Tatooine and get revenge on Palpatine, plus mention of Vader hunting Force users across the galaxy. Still Vader stuff is out of focus and Krell is just lone mid level Jedi master, rather than right hand of the galactic Emperor and Force Chosen One while being way worse than The Archmage Talzin.

Conclusion?

Yes.

jlvs200s from The Netherlands (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I miss my wife, Tails
#34736: Jan 12th 2024 at 11:43:49 AM

[tup] Pong Krell

"The time has come for every last Shoppe... No! The time has come for the DREAM KINGDOM to bow down to me! Gotcha ! Hee-hee!" | He/Him
TurlesTheVegan Xykon from The Darkest Pit of the Underworld Since: Dec, 2023 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Xykon
#34737: Jan 12th 2024 at 11:46:08 AM

[tup] for Pong Krell.

Power, it isn't something that you put on or take off like a jacket. It's just something you are.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34738: Jan 12th 2024 at 12:01:30 PM

Sure to Krell.

I remember Kordax's agency issues brought up.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#34741: Jan 12th 2024 at 1:11:06 PM

Was hateful up voted?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34742: Jan 12th 2024 at 1:18:03 PM

Oh right, was that the one with the blobs and the other character being as bad? Someone willing to count?

DefascinationMastermind (Newbie) Relationship Status: Singularity
#34743: Jan 12th 2024 at 1:35:44 PM

[tup] to Pong Krell.

Though, I was mentioned here.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#34744: Jan 12th 2024 at 1:38:07 PM

I don't think Hateful got enough votes, hang on

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#34745: Jan 12th 2024 at 1:45:10 PM

Hateful tally

[tup]: ACW (1)

[tdown]: Cr0w, Dood, jackie, agentofchaos, forgo, Seraph, 431, Snowy, Gray, fanman, NTG (11)

Abstain: Echidna, miraculous, ravok, Larry T, Geode, Turles, Mista (7)

It's not going up

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34746: Jan 12th 2024 at 1:45:28 PM

Defascination, I did indeed mention you. I THINK Edgar got enough votes if you wanna write him up.

[up] I shall remove him from the list.

Edited by ACW on Jan 12th 2024 at 4:46:00 AM

TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#34747: Jan 12th 2024 at 1:54:20 PM

[tup] Prog Krell

Once Upon A Time.
TheGrayFox ....Phenomenal from A Lovecraftian fishing village Since: Sep, 2011
....Phenomenal
#34748: Jan 12th 2024 at 2:05:52 PM

[tup] for Ego, Murgrim, and Krell.

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#34749: Jan 12th 2024 at 2:22:55 PM

Yes to Pong Krell, fuck that guy. Yes to Ego as well.

Next The Saint baddie from Scrags:

What has Rayt Marius done?

"His money was made from war and the instruments of war. All those amazing millions[...]were the wages of death and destruction and wholesale murder. They were coined out of blood and dishonor and famine, and the agony of peaceful nations. Men—and women and children, too—were killed and torture and mained to find that money."
  • The Mystery Millionaire. The Kingpin of the Merchants of Death . Disparagingly known by Simon Temple as "Angel Face" or "Tiny Tim" (and lovingly referred to by French author and Charteris scholar Jean-Marc Lofficier as a "proto-Bondian" villain—indeed, Marius predates the first James Bond novel by some 24 years!) Rayt Marius is a Diabolical Mastermind, arms trafficker and the closest Simon Templar ever had to a true Arch-Enemy.
  • A grim, hulking giant of a man from an unnamed European country, Rayt Marius has carved an industry of death from the arms trade, Marius has authored half-a-dozen wars "on a minor scale" in foreign countries, peddled instruments of death to dozens of warmongers, and killed countless innocent people all to line his pockets. Marius has a fiendish evil plan beyond anything ever seen in scale for the series: he wants to kickstart a new World War (and remember this was 1929—WWII hadn't happened yet) and kill countless millions of people to make himself the richest man on Earth.
  • In Marius' first appearance, the novel The Last Hero, Marius begins his nefarious schemes by appealing to the nationalistic ego of his country's crown prince Rudolf, and signs him onto a scheme to utilize a weapon of mass destruction. This being 1929, nukes weren't really a thing yet, so Marius purchases a cartoonier but no less lethal device called an "electron cloud", an insidious device capable of vaporizing organic material within seconds. Marius hopes to use the electron cloud as a weapon against population centers, hoping to murder innumerable innocent people to provoke the world into war.
  • Along the way, Marius bumps into our Anti-Hero Simon Templar, and quickly gets a rise out of the otherwise unflappable Gentleman Thief by kidnapping and threatening to murder his girlfriend Patricia Holm, as well as threatening to torture one of his friends. When Simon takes a minion of Marius' hostage, Marius casually shoots said minion dead. Marius' scheme is foiled, but Marius gets back at Simon Templar by murdering a major ally of Simon's and recurring character Norman Kent, who dies taking a bullet meant for Simon.
  • In the next novel, Knight Templar, Marius moves on to manipulating the heads of various countries, causing terrorist incidents and other acts that brew tension between countries. Marius' goal is to kickstart another attempt at kickstarting World War and the death of millions. When he captures Simon Templar again, Marius makes it clear he's not going to leave him to the whims of Bond Villain Stupidity. He's just going to kill Simon and his allies dead and frame it all as a car accident:
    "I have noticed that in the stories to which you refer, the method employed for the elimination of an undesirable busy-body is usually so elaborate and complicated that the hero's escape is as inevitable as the reader expects it to be. But I have not that melodramatic mind. If you are expecting an underground cellar full of poisonous snakes, or a trap door leading to a subterranean river, or a man-eating tiger imported for your benefit, or anything else so conventional…pray disillusion yourself. The end I have designed for you is very simple. You will simply meet with an unfortunate accident. That is all."
  • In the makings of this "unfortunate accident," Marius plans to kill Templar; his two allies; Sonia Delmar, the Girl of the Week; his Unwitting Pawn Sir Isaac; and, just for good measure, every single one of Sir Isaac's innocent household servants, all to leave no possible witnesses to his diabolical masterstroke.
  • Marius is defeated again and dies of a terminal disease in-between stories, but he leaves one more Thanatos Gambit to personally spite Simon in the story "The Simon Templar Foundation", exposing numerous members of his own clients and pitting them against Simon so as to posthumously kill the Saint. Alas, Simon Templar thwarts this final scheme and instead blackmails these clients of Marius' into contributing to a charity fund for those wounded by the atrocities of war.
Any mitigating factors?
  • Absolutely nothing.
Heinous standard?
  • The Saint had dozens and dozens of short stories, under Leslie Charteris' pen or otherwise, over six decades—the 20s to the 80s—and Marius was at the tippy-top of this standard. There's not much to mention. He has two separate attempts at starting WWII before the historical WWII, and he has numerous murders and attempted murders to cherry-top that. There's exactly one villain in the series (who'll come next) who rivals him in sheer scale, and I'll do a compare-and-contrast then, but the short of it: Marius is the worst in the original literary Saint canon.

Edited by Ravok on Jan 12th 2024 at 2:23:07 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021

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