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Complete Monster Proposal Thread

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here

Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.

Here is how the process works:

    Process 

  1. If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.

  2. After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".

  3. Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!

Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:

    Ground Rules 

  1. To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!

  2. No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
    1. Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
    2. Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
    3. Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.

  3. Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.

  4. Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").

  5. If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.

  6. 'If a work is already reserved by another user , please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!

  7. Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.

  8. Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.

  9. If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
    1. For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
    2. If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.

  10. Please keep all discussions "in-house".
    1. What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
    2. Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
    3. Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.

If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:

    Effortpost Template 

What is the work?

This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.

Who is the candidate and what have they done?

This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.

Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?

This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.

Are they bad enough?

A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:

  • Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
  • The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
  • The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)

Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.

Final verdict?

This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.

And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:13:36 PM

WilyGryphon Since: Apr, 2023
#34426: Jan 8th 2024 at 4:17:54 PM

  • Cor Autem Aurora: Caligo Uldor is a commander in the Niflheim Empire, having a hand in the empire's war crimes. He is also a pedophile and serial rapist who uses his position to assault whatever boys and girls he can get his hands on and sometimes physically abuses them as well. After the conquest of Tenebrae, he attempted to force himself on a young Lunafreya and Ravus. Sent to Lestallum to track down Noctis, he grooms and manipulates Talcott into giving him access to the Leville Hotel, then attempts to interrogate Jared and beats the old butler half to death with his own cane, before sexually assaulting Iris. Depraved enough to have to restrain himself from raping Talcott while spying on him, Uldor earns the loathing of everyone around him, with even Ardyn and Vanitas disgusted by his actions.

TheGrayFox ....Phenomenal from A Lovecraftian fishing village Since: Sep, 2011
....Phenomenal
#34427: Jan 8th 2024 at 4:20:51 PM

[tup] for the Entity that is totally not a Chaos God.

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Godwriter King of the Koopas from Maryland (The New Guy) Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
King of the Koopas
#34429: Jan 8th 2024 at 4:45:13 PM

Hey I need help I’m doing an effortpost on grand ruler celesto from fall of starfleet or have someone else do the effortpost.

The Ultimate Incarnation of Evil
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#34430: Jan 8th 2024 at 4:46:40 PM

Ok, back to The Saint, this time Scrags is discussing the novelization of the '97 film, written by Burl Barer:

What has Ivan Tretiak done?

  • As in the movie, Tretiak is an oil magnate whose ambitions are described as "filling cemeteries," who plunges Moscow into a deep freeze by hiding gigantic reserves of his own oil, willingly letting dozens of people freeze to death so he can use their anger to "kill democracy [in Russia] and establish a new dictatorship." Everyone Tretiak attempts to kill in the movie, he tries to kill here: Simon, his ally Dr. Emma Russell, and his rival Karpov, as well as extra murders he orders such as Simon's innocent ally Toli (and Ilya kills a lot more innocent people at Tretiak's behest than in the film; we'll get to him after this). All while this happens, Tretiak kicks up his feet, eats caviar and rat-races in his mansion, which is pointed out to be literally the one and only comfortably heated building in Moscow.
  • The book also buffs out his personal villainy by making him an abysmal Bad Boss. Case in point: when a dirty cop on his payroll tries and fails to capture Simon, Tretiak promptly beats the man to death with his walking stick on the spot. One of his two chief scientists reneges on him for his awful treatment; Tretiak shoots him and kills him. The other scientist kills himself rather than let this happen.
  • We also get a very clear plan for Tretiak's overall plan for the country, a repeat of the USSR at its most tyrannical:
    [S]treets swarming with uniformed militia, neighbors betraying neighbors, midnight arrests, the third degree, secret tribunals, forced confessions, kangaroo courts, concentration camps, firing squads.
  • Unfortunately (for Tretiak), he also suffers Death by Adaptation. Rather than getting arrested as in the film, Ivan is killed by his own treacherous son Ilya.
Any mitigating factors?
  • As many as in the original movie. The book is even more hamhanded about the movie about Tretiak being as "sentimental as a rabid Doberman" and having nothing even close to a redeeming quality or the capacity for anything except self-interest, which is another reason I'm way more confident in this version keeping.
Heinous standard?
  • Comfortably over it compared to his film counterpart. He has the body count from the original movie, plus about a dozen more people die on-page than in the film because of Tretiak's scheme, either on his order or committed by him personally. The novelisation is far less averse to having him Kick the Dog when it counts.

Edited by Ravok on Jan 8th 2024 at 4:46:55 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
deerhornsaresopretty Since: Jun, 2023
#34433: Jan 8th 2024 at 5:30:59 PM

Hey, I'm new here to this thread. Let me know of any errors I make.

What is the work?

  • Ryu the Cave Boy is an anime set in the prehistoric era about a boy named Ryu trying to survive the wilderness, alongside the wrath of his fellow caveman. Ryu explores wars, cults, the flora and fauna of his Death World and lots more to find his long lost mother, Esta.

Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?

Freudian Excuse: Tyranno is a carnivorous animal so presumably, his motive is food, as he views both humans and animals as a means to fill his stomach. However, there are cases of him killing humans in his sight and not bothering to eat them afterwards.

Are they bad enough?

When Ryu was a baby, the tribespeople ordered that he was to be killed by being fed to The Dreaded dinosaur Tyranno. He was saved by an ape, Kitty. Years later, when Ryu was a teenager, Tyranno viciously murdered Kitty, leading Ryu broken and desiring Revenge.

The fact that the tribespeople wanted to kill Ryu by leaving him for Tyranno shows that Tyranno's reputation is so infamous that the humans have accepted him as a killing machine for people they don't like. At least 2 of the main characters can trace the loss of a loved one to Tyranno - he ate Kiba's wife and child, and later slaughtered the whole tribe that tried to kill Ryu in the first place.

Final verdict?

Tyranno's lack of care for the human race as a whole and indiscriminate killing (remember, he slaughtered the whole tribe that tried to kill Ryu in the first place) cements him as Complete Monster.

Edited by deerhornsaresopretty on Jan 8th 2024 at 5:32:13 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#34434: Jan 8th 2024 at 5:40:32 PM

You have to add a section where you describe the candidate and what they do, outside of the Heinousness section.

Edited by MasterN on Jan 8th 2024 at 5:40:37 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#34435: Jan 8th 2024 at 5:41:50 PM

I am not sure Tyranno can pass the moral agency requirement if he is an animal killing for food.

How clear is it that he has human level intelligence?

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#34436: Jan 8th 2024 at 6:50:03 PM

[tup] Novel!Ivan

It's Spooky Month!
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#34437: Jan 8th 2024 at 8:34:53 PM

And second from the Saint novel:

What has Ilya Tretiak done?

  • Tretiak's son, Ilya is a sadistic, Methadrine-addicted Neo-Nazi and total scuzzbag hoping to ride his Dad's coattails into power. Ilya is Ivan's primary enforcer and instrument of death, snuffing out any obstacles to his father's attempted coup with sadistic relish. Ilya chases Simon and Emma Russell for the whole movie, at one point attempting to kill Simon through a game of Russian Roulette just to torture Simon more with the anticipation.
  • Along the way Ilya kills any innocent people in his way. An innocent woman in a hotel who helped Simon almost calls an alarm on Ilya; Ilya shoots her dead, then kills the innocent bellhop for good measure. A community of freezing cold Muscovites give Simon shelter; Ilya shoots an old man in the heart for giving him lip as a clear example to what will happen to the rest if they don't turn him over. Ilya also personally attempts to kill President Karpov, trying to have him ripped to pieces by a bloodthirsty mob.
  • Ivan's plan fails at the last minute, so to save his ass, Ilya shoots and kills three members of the National Guard before they can even draw their weapons, causing a gigantic firefight between Tretiak's men and the National Guard (with a screaming crowd of thousands, including children, caught in-between—nobody dies but they're certainly in danger of it, complete with descriptions of mothers throwing themselves over their screaming children to protect them from the bullets).
  • Disgusted by his father's weakness, Ilya shoots his old man through the face and tries to escape with the cold fusion disc that would have allowed Ivan to monopolize the energy sector, hoping to somehow slither his way into the President's seat himself after the chaos blows over. Likehis father, Ilya dies in the book rather than being arrested, tumbling to a fiery death after a battle with Simon in the burning Tretiak mansion.

Any mitigating factors?

  • No. There's one quick moment where Ilya shows admiration toward Ivan (over Ivan beating the cop for death) but needless to say, that's not much of a concern when Ilya ends up putting a bullet in Ivan's head at the end.
Heinous standard?
  • Easily over the standard for a Dragon. Ilya in the movie is nasty, but he's mostly bark over bite and he's not ultimately evil enough in the end. The novel version is guilty of about half-a-dozen extra gratuitous murders, as well as the addition of patricide to his rapsheet (not that Ivan is a victim worth much sympathy).

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
TurlesTheVegan Xykon from The Darkest Pit of the Underworld Since: Dec, 2023 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Xykon
#34438: Jan 8th 2024 at 8:49:27 PM

[tup] to the Tretiak father and son.

Abstain on Tyranno for now.

Power, it isn't something that you put on or take off like a jacket. It's just something you are.
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
jlvs200s from The Netherlands (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I miss my wife, Tails
#34440: Jan 8th 2024 at 10:16:06 PM

[tup] Ivan and Ilya

"The time has come for every last Shoppe... No! The time has come for the DREAM KINGDOM to bow down to me! Gotcha ! Hee-hee!" | He/Him
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#34441: Jan 8th 2024 at 10:42:03 PM

[tup]Ivan and Ilya.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TheGrayFox ....Phenomenal from A Lovecraftian fishing village Since: Sep, 2011
....Phenomenal
#34442: Jan 8th 2024 at 10:53:33 PM

[tup] for the novel Tretiaks.

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#34443: Jan 9th 2024 at 12:32:41 AM

[tup] for the Entity

[tup] for Ivan. Not sure about Ilya. How much access to his father's resources does he have?

Welcome to the thread deerhornsaresopretty smile. If you propose a candidate it's important to describe what he/she/it actually did. Not every detail, but his goal and the actions that would make him a complete monster. In Tyranno’s case that probably would include a count of the all the people he ate and tried to eat. However, an animal can only be a monster if it’s made clear that the animal in question has the same intelligence as a human. A creature merely acting on instinct can’t qualify. To use an example: the Indominus Rex from the Jurassic Park franchise, despite his cruelty and cunning, is still animals and thus lack the necessary moral agency a CM needs.

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#34446: Jan 9th 2024 at 2:22:27 AM

[tup] to Ivan Tretiak and Illya Tretiak.

CapitanoNox Lord of Space from Italy Since: Oct, 2018 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Lord of Space
#34447: Jan 9th 2024 at 7:29:38 AM

What is the work?

The SCP Foundation. Do I even need to introduce it? It's one of the most famous things ever born on the Internet, and it's arguably the biggest source of web monsters after Creepypastas. But for those who don't know it well: it's a collaborative writing community focusing around the titular SCP Foundation, a secret organization that captures anomalies of any kind and contains them.

The site is pretty (in)famous for its lack of a real canon, since more or less anyone can contribute to it and add whatever they want, even if it contradicts other stuff.

Today we are going to focus on a particular canon: When Day Breaks, where the Sun itself becomes anomalous and starts turning everyone into blob monsters. In particular, we are gonna take a look to a story (Heart and Sol) that serves as a prequel to the original When Day Breaks SCP-001 article, with both of them being written by the same author.

Who is the candidate and what have they done?

The Hateful (who's implied to be none other than the Hateful Star) is the Greater-Scope Villain of When Day Breaks as a whole.

A sapient star similar the Sun (who the story reveals to be called Sol, and to be a "she" apparently), the Hateful is immediately states to not only be older than Sol but also arrogant and impulsive. The Hateful emitted his light on two different planets, Rythlos and Tmtes. Those on the first planet were never able to develop "eyes or vision to gaze upon him", so he "boiled the fledgling ecosystem for this perceived slight". While those on the other planet were intelligent, they weren't intelligent enough to appreciate the gift of the Hateful's light, and so they too were exterminated.

The Hateful grew envious of Sol and the planet she had managed to create. To quote the story's own words: "Furious and indignant that she should be graced with the complexity and variability of its inhabitants. He raged as its dominant species' venerations of her presence echoed throughout the cosmos, forever reverberating her praises to their brethren." So the Hateful started moving towards Earth, with the intention of obliterating life on it.

It's revealed this is why Sol started transforming all creatures on Earth into those of blob zombies, to ensure that they'd be able to survive the Hateful's arrival.

Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?

None. The Hateful is nothing more than a petty, arrogant and envious entity with nothing positive about it.

Are they bad enough?

Now here comes the most complex part. SCP's heinous standard is... weird, to say the least, and its lack of a singular, linear canon makes things only harder.

However, while something like an Omnicidal Maniac isn't unseen in this franchise/series/mythos/whatever-you-wanna-call-it, I think the Hateful ultimately stands out. For what appears to be nothing more than a sapient star I'd say eradicating life on two planets and attempting to do the same on a third is enough, especially since not only he's extremely petty in his actions, but he's also the reason the events of the canon are kicked.

Final verdict?

Yes to me.

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#34448: Jan 9th 2024 at 8:06:27 AM

[tup] Hateful

Also finished first Crisis on Infinite Earth animated movie, PM if curious.

  • The Beyond:
    • Issue 10’s “Release from Satan’s Scourge”: Satan is a wicked master of evil who plans on bringing Hell on Earth and eternally torturing humanity. He was defeated and sealed in a book by Duke Black when his demons terrorised the Duke’s land, before being freed by skeptical Gil Jenkins. Satan sends his demons to kill Duke’s numerous descendants and destroy his grave, letting Gil live so he could see Satan spreading his evil across the world.
    • Issue 23’s “Minion of the Bloody Horsemen”:
      • Hans Richter is a bloodthirsty and ambitious S.S. colonel whose service earned him the moniker “Butcher of Rome”. After being saved from execution and brought to ancient Rome by the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Hans willingly becomes their servant in return for for power. Organising a slave rebellion and blackmailing the Emperor into giving him a Legion for the conquest of Africa, Hans plots to take the hand of the Emperor’s daughter in marriage and take control of the Roman Empire. He leads his army to plunder and raze Africa’s cities while spreading the Horsemen’s evil, at one point ordering a crowd of starving people who asked him for bread killed. Returning to Rome after plague kills half of his Legion, Hans kills the Emperor after learning his daughter has been struck by plague, declaring he doesn’t need the Horsemen anymore and that he alone will conquer Rome.
      • The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse themselves are evil fiends who brought Hans to ancient Rome. Promising to make him the most powerfull man in Roman Empire if he serves them, the Horsemen assist him with organising a slave rebellion. The Horsemen join Hans in his conquest of Africa, assisting him while spreading their evil, leading to lots of death, starvation and plague. Not even people at their side are safe, as plague kills half of Hans’s legion and their evil spreads to Rome as well, bringing the Empire to the brink of collapse.

Edited by EmperorGeode on Jan 9th 2024 at 8:28:29 AM

Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#34449: Jan 9th 2024 at 9:26:55 AM

I personally disagree on the "the Indominus Rex from the Jurassic Park franchise, despite his cruelty and cunning, is still animals and thus lack the necessary moral agency a CM needs".

The B-plot of Jurassic Park III was the revelation that the raptors are more intelligent than anyone anticipated—possessing a "language" and being able to communicate and strategize, and Blue in particular shows empathy in Fallen Kingdom. The Indominus rex was part raptor and able to communicate and give orders with them (as well as react with rage when those orders are disobeyed), strategize, and was notedly sadistic—killing for pleasure rather than to just eat. Rather than it being "Oh, she's just an animal." that disqualifies the Indominus rex, the thing that should be what disqualifies her is her traumatic upbringing—which is noted by Owen Grady to be the reason for her more sociopathic traits. As he and Dr. Wu spell it out, the higher-ups created the Indominus to combine the traits of multiple apex predators and assumed she would just be a dumb beast, and the callousness in how they raised her combined with her unexpected intelligence to effectively turn her into a saurian serial killer.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#34450: Jan 9th 2024 at 9:39:55 AM

[tup]hateful

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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